Saxons, etc

Jane,

I have some question regarding High German/ Low
German/Plattdeutsch/Hochdeutsch.. Is not High German what is taught in
German schools, or proper German and Low German what is spoken in certain
areas much like the differences between the different areas of the USA??
I know many feel that they are two different languages but I tend to
think it is like the differences between New York English and New
Orleans English etc. Both places have the same English taught in schools
and it is the dialects that are different.----Bob Marhenke

?Bob,

Forgive me for jumping in here, I know your question was directed to Jane.
Regarding the difference between Low and High German, it is much more than
the example you have suggested. The word Platt means flat or low and
describes the country where the language is spoken, North Germany. There
are several dialects in the Low German or Plattdeutsch language, but it is
not a dialect of High German.

We still speak Low German here in Cole Camp, Missouri and annually present a
2 hour theater production entirely in Low German. Often times we have
visitors who were born in Germany. If they are from southern Germany they
do not understand Low German.

Low German is more closely related to Dutch than to High German, and is
also a root language of English. Example, the word for school in High
German is Schule. pronounced, shoe-la). In Low German the word is the same
as in English; School (pronounced, shoal). There are many other examples of
the similarities between English and Low German.

  For more information on Low German I suggest two excellent books by Robert
Stockman,10748 100th Street, Alto, Michigan 49302. His first book, Platt
Duetsch - Low German, is primarily an English-Low German dictionary but
includes a history of the language. His second book is called North Germany
to North America, an excellent book on the 19th century migration.

   Here in Cole Camp, we have written a book about the Low German
immigrants in our area, who came from the land between Bremen, Hamburg and
Bremervoerde,
and also a smaller group from the Hameln, Bad Pyrmont area. This book is
available from the Low German club of Cole Camp, P.O. Box 65, Cole Camp, MO
65325. Price $40.00, includes postage.

Neil Heimsoth

Hello everybody in this discussion,

yes, there is much more to it. High German (= hochdeutsch) is the common written
language, which children learn at school all over Germany as well as Austria. In
addition there are a lot of different dialects spoken in Germany, many of which
are considered "low" German or Plattdeutsch (flat German). But these dialects
are not at all only those of the northern German flat country but also those of
quite hilly parts like the areas of the Eifel (Eifeler Platt), the Westerwald
(Westerwaelder Platt), Bergisches Land (Bergisches Platt), the cities of Aachen
(Aachener Platt) and of Cologne (Koelsch Platt) etc. which are all quite
different from each other, but have all the same roots. Koelsch Platt for
instance includes many expressions which origin from the times of occupation by
foreign troops throughout centuries, particularly the French occupation
under Napoleon after the French Revolution. In other parts of Germany Swedish
and other troops left their marks during the 30 year war from 1618 - 1648. Often
the dialects are even different from one parish to another. An example:
Hochdeutsch "i" changes to "e" in Cologne, to "oe" in the parish of Much, 20
miles east of Cologne, to "o" in the parish of Ruppicheroth, less than 10 miles
east of Much. Is = ist (hochdeutsch) = ess (Koelsch) = oess (Much) = oss
(Ruppichteroth). Another example is the word for go changes from gehen to jonn
to johen to choen within a distance fo about 30 miles.

Thus also names have frequently changed in spelling and pronunciation depending
on location and dialect. In addition pastors very often translated the names
into Latin, when they wrote down births, christenings, marriages and deaths.
Plattdeutsch dialects in addition are not static. They have changed over the
years due to all kinds of influences. The language still spoken in certain areas
of th US probably have preserved more from the language the particular immigrant
families spoke in the time they arrived 150 to 200 years ago. But they also have
assimmilated many American words.

This can also be observed particularly well in the Amish country.

Karlheinz Steimel

says Hi from sunny Cologne on the Rhine where we are just now celebrating the
fifth season = Karneval (in high German "Fastnacht" for Koelsch "Fastelovend").

Neil and Marilyn Heimsoth schrieb:

?Bob,

Forgive me for jumping in here, I know your question was directed to Jane.
Regarding the difference between Low and High German, it is much more than
the example you have suggested. The word Platt means flat or low and
describes the country where the language is spoken, North Germany. There
are several dialects in the Low German or Plattdeutsch language, but it is
not a dialect of High German.

We still speak Low German here in Cole Camp, Missouri and annually present a
2 hour theater production entirely in Low German. Often times we have
visitors who were born in Germany. If they are from southern Germany they
do not understand Low German.

Low German is more closely related to Dutch than to High German, and is
also a root language of English. Example, the word for school in High
German is Schule. pronounced, shoe-la). In Low German the word is the same
as in English; School (pronounced, shoal). There are many other examples of
the similarities between English and Low German.

In Koelsch the word is Schull, pronounced schooll.

Hallo List:

For my own sake, can anyone relate these differences to examples/comparisons
in North American cultures/languages ? While I may not be the sharpest knife
in the drawer, I still cannot relate to "High" and "Low" and I've been
"listening" to these explanations for years. Also, are the dialects
mentioned (hill country, etc) the same difference as the dialects in say,
Appalachia which differ from the Ozarks?

Is the difference between High & Low the same as the King's English and
Ebonics or would it be easier to consider it a completely different
language?

Herzliche Gr��e

Gary Stoltman
Mercernille, NJ

Hi Gary,

yes, high German can be compared with King's English, while the dialects
reflect differences like the London cockney English or the Scottish
English, but not Welsh or Gaelic. I am not familiar with American
dialects of Appalachia or the Ozarks. But I think that Texan or Hoosier
are kinds of America dialects.

Karlheinz Steimel

Gary Stoltman schrieb:

Gary,
Think of Hi and Low German as two different languages. When we go to
Germany we stay with a family in Elsdorf. The parents speak no English. We
do not speak High German, but we communicate with them in Low German. They
have two teenage children that we communicate with in English, because they
cannot understand Low German.
Comparison: numbers in English: one, two, three, four, five, six, seven.
                                 High German: ein, zwei, drei, vier, fuenf,
sechs, sieben.
                                 Low German: een, twee, dree, veer, fiev,
soess, soeben.
I am the manager of a forty member German choral group. About fifteen of
our members are very fluent in Low German, but we sing mostly High German
songs. Without the help of one of our members who is fluent in High German
none of us would know what we are singing. In other words, High German is
foreign to those of us who speak only Low German.
Hope this helps,
Neil

You should look up the e-mail of Jane Swan and others prior to your post, they have covered the topic rather well. To summarize, "Hochdeutsch" and "Niederdeutsch" (colloquially "Plattdeutsch"), refer to the dialect spoken based on altitude above sea level, not social standing or cartographic position. Translation: the lowlands of Germany, which are in the north, spoke Niederdeutsch, the southern part of Germany with the hills and mountains spoke "high" German.

Dave Fleer

Hi Dave,

I am sorry, but your definition is wrong. The southern part of Germany never
spoke high German. They spoke and still speak to a large extent Bavarian, or
Suebian, or Franconian etc. The region where high German (Hochdeutsch) is
spoken best, is more or less in the center of Germany, namely Hannover and its
surroundings, which is flat as flat can be. High and low German have nothing to
do with sea level, hills, mountains or other geographical elevation. High German
is best German and low German is everything other than high German. Also, it
would be absolutely wrong to link the expression to high and low class.

Karlheinz Steimel
from beautiful Cologne in the river Rhine.

Dave schrieb: