Thanks everyone. I only visited that part of Germany so I could not speak
for the rest of the country. I wish I could have spoke with Oma fluently
because her husband was in the war and captured by the Russians then sent to
Siberia. I wonder if I would have gotten the same, change the subject feeling, from
her, like I did from everyone else?
Eric Truhn
Eric,
I doubt that your Oma knew a whole lot about her husband's time in Siberia.
My dad was there and in the Ural mountains you couldn't get a word out of
him on the subject. It was very painful and best not remembered and talked
about. I also did not bug him about as I could tell it hurt him to just
think about that time. Over time I did get some things out of him like how
he was able to survive because as a tailor he could always stitch some rags
together and sell them for a little something extra. He was also able to
deal with the Russians that way. But I could never have a real discussion
about his years in Russia. When he was released in 1949 it was only because
he failed to die at 90 pounds. Before the war he was a big heavy guy
weighing close to three hundred pounds. My mom told me he loved to eat pig's
knuckles and other fat which was disgusting to her and then he always sat on
a table sewing stuff. No exercise in that job. I was only two when he was
drafted and saw him again 10 years later as a scarecrow. No one recognized
him except me. I guess I knew the face from the pictures.
Fred
730 5th St. NW
Naples, FL 34120
FredRump@gmail.com
I used to fear the dark as a youngster, until I read certain accounts of what the German armies went through particularly in the East (not that the Western front or Africa deserts were any cake walk either), and God forbid if any poor souls were captured by the Soviets. Then I found I feared very little, as all things invariably paled by comparison. This has remained with me to this day.
Fred, I recall some 25 or 30 years ago seeing a reference to a book titled "Stalingrad Survivor". It was an accounting written and released by one who managed to survive capture (in German I believe). I never found a copy of it but always wish I had. Have you by chance seen or read it? I know little more than that regarding it, and it's but a vague memory now. But I'm sure it would make for an excellent and revelatory read.
I do know that only a relatively small percentage of Germans captured and marched off to Siberian gulags managed to survive. It came down to luck as much as anything else (when and where captured, what wounds they happen to possess, what insignias they wore, what skills they might have, what kind of gulag fate chose for them to, etc.). Practically no Waffen SS soldiers, German or otherwise, survived; Wermacht, Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine and Volkstrum personnel had a slightly better chance, but not by much. The paltry numbers who were released came back broke, busted and literally barefoot, and most probably would NEVER have been released if Stalin had lived on, or if Khrushchev had not come to power (as opposed to say Beria or Malenkov). It was on Khrushchev's orders in the mid-fifties that the remaining German and Axis prisoners were released. Having served at the front during the war as a Ukrainian Commissar, and having faced the German Armies head-on throughout the conflict (few that high up ever did), he knew better than most what these men had already suffered when he took control of the Kremlin. By then though, only skeletal numbers remained.
Few will ever know the extent of the nightmares these men went through. Not that I need tell you.
Jb
PS. I was always under the assumption that next to nil were let go before Stalin's death in '53. Proves you never know much.
There are two interesting books on this subject. The first one
is a book called "The Forgotten Soldier," written almost as a diary, about a
young German soldier's experiences on the eastern front. The other is
called "Other Losses." This one may not be for everyone, because it
addresses the treatment of some German POW's in Allied camps in Germany.
NH
Excellent. I will look forward to locating these.
The Allies may not have been as rough (or murderous) as the Soviets, but they were still rough, especially when beloved Ike made his appearance [Ed: I DON'T like Ike]. American and Allied soldiers were not exactly saintly either. War is a rough business, where morals often hover beneath the radar, or get lost in the ring of fire. But the Germans hardly ran a monopoly on things brutal. They simply get all the bad and persistent press. I've had lengthy conversations with a good number of frontline vets from that war over the years, including a few in our own extended family, and know better. As such, that second book you mention will not throw me back for much. Besides when the Allied Commander in Chief declares "I hate Germans!", and then refuses to discriminate between the atrocity makers, the soldiers and the civilians, what should you expect? I guess the giving up of Berlin for little more than Soviet reprisal, at the behest of old "Uncle Joe" Stalin, would do for starters. If it wasn't for the quick souring in relations between the Allies and the Soviets at the conclusion of the conflict, and the intervention of a number of more clear headed politicians and activists stateside and in Britain, God knows how many more might have perished needlessly.
Thanks N.
[Courtesy of Hannover-L]
- Neil Heimsoth wrote:
These groups all speak Plattd�tsch or Low German, but there is quite a difference among the groups. In 1989 we hosted a group of 46 from Elsdorf, Germany which is in the area of our ancestors. They were amazed to hear us use Low German words that they barely remembered hearing from their grandparents. The Low German spoken today in Germany has evolved to include a lot of high German, where ours is the same that our forefathers brought with them in the 1840's and 50s.
- Karl Beermann wrote:
Hi Joy, This is your first lesson to read Plattdeutsch.
Luett plattduetsch Gedicht to Winachten von Rudolf Kinau for all the Coole Campers
- Joel Russell wrote:
My grandmother spoke no German, which made for an interesting time when she met her future mother-in-law who spoke no English. My grandfather had to translate so they could converse.
- Art Dohrman wrote:
The common language on the main shopping street (Steinway Street) even in the 1930s was a mixture of English and German which my grandfather referred to as "Steinway Avenue Dutch" - folks had forgotten parts of their German, but couldn't quite speak English either.
- Fred Rump wrote:
None of my grandchildren speak any German despite the fact that my kids know how I would value that. It's just not in the cards unless both partners know the language. When I tried to teach the grandchildren some German, I'd get, "speak normal Opa".
- Gary Stoltman wrote:
Our contribution to patriotism was to change 'Stoltmann' to 'Stoltman' on all official documents and it became the family business name. Often wondered how that change masked the obvious.
- Don Roddy wrote:
My mother and her sisters did not learn any German, and I never heard my grandfather speak German and didn't realize he could do so until I got involved in genealogy.
- Jim Decker wrote:
Once when I was in about the third grade I was standing in the kitchen where my father was cooking breakfast on a wooden stove. I think that the program that I was listening to was Sky King and some one called some one Dad. A few moment later I called my father Dad. He looked at me in those cold steel gray eyes and told me never to call him Dad again. He has been gone now for many years. What's sad now is that I do not remember what I called him. I guess it was father.
- J S Poetker wrote:
I have story written in 1776 in low German by a German relative who lived in Melle, Kingdom of Hannover. My 56 year old cousin in Bremen, German, cannot read the story but his father can as it is the dialect he learned in school. Seems strange to me a father and his son learned in school different versions of German.
- J S Poetker wrote:
Jb - you asked "Where are the ladies" in this conversation about the old language. So here's my story, told to me by my mother:
My mother's grandparents came from Germany in 1884 and 1890 and married in Wisconsin. They could only speak German, but they could understand English. My mother and her sisters could only speak English, but they could understand their grandparents' German ('low German' - they were from Pommern). I can just imagine them talking back and forth, the elders in German and the younsters in English, and all getting along just fine!
Also, my mother's mother was born and raised in Wisconsin. By the time I knew her she spoke little German, but could understand it. But she often came up with these wonderful old phrases which she would translate into English for us. Unfortunately, I don't know the German words anymore, but one that sticks in my mind was "many hands make light work" (viele.....).
Merry Christmas to you all!
Bonnie Hartmann
Laguna Beach, California
Dear List,
My grandmothe..whose last address before she arrived in the U.S. was..
Passenger Arrival Lists, T-715/Roll 3850/Page 39"
"LIST OR MANIFEST OF ALIEN PASSENGERS FOR THE UNITED STATES"
Passengers Sailing from Hamburg 7 May 1926...
No. on List: 23
Family Name: Schmidt
Given Name: Dora
Age: 25
Sex: F
Calling or Occupation: dom. servt....
Able to read/language/write? yes German yes
Nationality/Race/Country? German Germany
Last Permanent Address: Sande, Germany
The name and complete address of nearest relative or friend in country whence alien came:
Mother: I. Schmidt, Sande near Bergedorf, Billstrasse 1.
Final destination: Mo. Saint Louis
By whom was passage paid?: fiance: Edmund Sass, St. Louis, Mo. 6208 Lennox Place
Immigration Visa Number: 31904
Issued at: Hamburg
STATES IMMIGRATION OFFICER AT PORT OF ARRIVAL
Arriving at Port of New York 17 May 1926
ADDED NOTES: There was also a discription of Dora listing her as Fair, Dk. Blond and a height of 5'4" and in good health. Sande near Bergedorf is now I believe Lohbruegge?, Bergedorf, Germany. Dora and Edmund were married 18 May 1926. The day after her arrival at the Port of New York. [Ellis Island]."
Mom told me that Dora's schooling concisted of learning how to cook, clean clothes, iron, and keep house.
Mom tells me that she told her that her education concentrated on learning how to keep house..and that my grandmother actually ironed the bed sheets.
What I remember were the cookies baked in the summer kitchen.
Dear List,
I have always thought about my dads, das... "POP" was what we called him. He became a citizen of the us circa 1932. I also have photos of him visiting his home in Bergedorf, Germany dated 1932.
I always supposed those photos dated 1932, were taken just before the National Socialist Workers Party took over.
My grandfather, per the passenger list was a turner. I know that he was a machinist. I still have s few tools and bits he made.
During WWII he worked at a place called Universal Match Company...and also a place called Uno-Dynamics. I think these companies made bombs during WWII.
I have often wondered how my grandfather must have felt working for a company who build bombs that may have or probobly were dropped near Bergedorf, Hamburg, Germany..in the neighborhood he was born in.
I know if it was me... I wouldn't want any bombs to hurt my loved ones. And I wouldn't want bombs to hurt the loved ones of others.
War is ugly.
War is dirty.
War is not a way to solve problems.
And is not a solution to todays political muck.
Cactus Flower wrote:
War is ugly.
War is dirty.
War is not a way to solve problems.
And is not a solution to todays political muck.
War is also life.
Jb