From: "Spreckels, Volker (DSK DIG)" <volker.spreckels@deutsche-steinkohle.de>
To: "Ronald Spreckels" <ralvins@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [HN] Saxons, etc.
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 09:56:52 +0100Hi Ron,
just let me write some words to the topic of High (Hochdeutsch) and Low (Plattdeutsch) German language. (Platt can even be translated as "flat")
Some parts written below are not quite exact (or maybe I haven't got the right sense...).
The three languages English, Frisian (north-east coastal areas of Germany and northern parts of The Netherlands) and Plattdeutsch have the same root, sometime in the early mid-ages.
The direct separation between "Low" and "High" was due to Gutenberg - if he had lived some 100 kilometers northward he would have printed the first bible in "Plattdeutsch" - but he lived in area where "Hochdeutsch" was his language and henceforward "Hochdeutsch" developped to the official language in Germany.
Thus Plattdeutsch is only a spoken language, there are no rules for grammar and writing! Therefore there are still various small differences that can be found even for neighboured villages. And the differences grow with the distance. Let me give you one or two examples:
The word for "Cows" is in my village (Hammah) spoken as "Keih" (you can speak it like the word "I" with a "K" in front), 5 kilometers apart in Himmelpforten they speak the word as "Keuh" (you could speak it as "boy" with a "K" in front).
Beer: we in Hammah say "Beer" (spoken as your "bear"), in Himmelpforten they say "Beier" (spoken as your word "wire" with a "b" in front).Longer distances: for "talking" we say "schnacken" but in the most western parts of Germany the people say "pratern".
Karl-Heinz Steimel wrote that there are still other "Lows". At first glance this is right, but these are only local dialects and not real languages!
The "real" language Plattdeutsch still is partly spoken in the rural, northern parts of Germany. Regarded from this point of view it is mostly the German Lowland where Platt is spoken (in Niedersachsen, Schleswig-Holstein, Hamburg, Bremen, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern). Somewhere I read that "Platt" does not mean the flat countryside, it means the point of view some centuries ago when the city-people looked down on the peasants with their simple (-> flat) way of life.
The southern border is, roughly said, set by the rivers "Lippe" and the southern part of the river "Weser". Determined by "bigger cities" the border goes roughly (west to east) from Muenster - Bielefeld - Hannover - Magdeburg - Berlin.To my opinion the language will get exstinct during the next two to three generations. I for example, grew up bi-lingual but I do already have a lack in special vocabulary. Plattdeutsch is spoken by evanescently smaller groups. (In the 60ies / 70ies Plattdeutsch was regarded as the language of the ignorant country people and it began to vanish from the daily life).
I think that should be enough from my side. Ron, if you want, you may forward my e-mail to whom it may concern.
Best regards, your friend
Volker--------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker Spreckels, Dipl.-Ing. (Geodesy)
Deutsche Steinkohle AG (DSK)
Dept. Engineering Survey / Geoinformation (DIG)
- DIG 2.2 - Photogrammetry / Remote Sensing -
Karlstrasse 37-39
D-45661 Recklinghausen-Hochlarmark
Tel.: ++49 (0) 2361 - 308 450
FAX: ++49 (0) 2361 - 308 411
Email: volker.spreckels@deutsche-steinkohle.deFrom: Ronald Spreckels [mailto:ralvins@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 3:25 AM
To: vspr@gmx.de; Spreckels, Volker (DSK DIG)
Subject: FW: [HN] Saxons, etc.>From: "Neil and Marilyn Heimsoth" <heimat@iland.net>
>Reply-To: Hannover-L <hannover-l@genealogy.net>
>To: "Hannover-L" <hannover-l@genealogy.net>
>Subject: Re: [HN] Saxons, etc.
>Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 14:53:59 -0600
>
>Gary,
>Think of Hi and Low German as two different languages. When we go to
>Germany we stay with a family in Elsdorf. The parents speak no English.
>We
>do not speak High German, but we communicate with them in Low German. They
>have two teenage children that we communicate with in English, because they
>cannot understand Low German.
>Comparison: numbers in English: one, two, three, four, five, six,
>seven.
> High German: ein, zwei, drei, vier,
>fuenf,
>sechs, sieben.
> Low German: een, twee, dree, veer, fiev,
>soess, soeben.
>I am the manager of a forty member German choral group. About fifteen of
>our members are very fluent in Low German, but we sing mostly High German
>songs. Without the help of one of our members who is fluent in High German
>none of us would know what we are singing. In other words, High German is
>foreign to those of us who speak only Low German.
>Hope this helps,
>Neil
>
>From: "Gary Stoltman" <stopan@optonline.net>
>To: "Hannover-L" <hannover-l@genealogy.net>
>Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 1:48 PM
>Subject: Re: [HN] Saxons, etc.
>
> > Hallo List:
> >
> > For my own sake, can anyone relate these differences to
>examples/comparisons
> > in North American cultures/languages ? While I may not be the sharpest
>knife
> > in the drawer, I still cannot relate to "High" and "Low" and I've been
> > "listening" to these explanations for years. Also, are the dialects
> > mentioned (hill country, etc) the same difference as the dialects in
>say,
> > Appalachia which differ from the Ozarks?
> >
> > Is the difference between High & Low the same as the King's English and
> > Ebonics or would it be easier to consider it a completely different
> > language?
> >
> > Herzliche Gr��e
> >
> > Gary Stoltman
> > Mercernille, NJ
> >
> > From: "Karlheinz Steimel" <KarlheinzSteimel@t-online.de>
> > To: <hannover-l@genealogy.net>
> > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 10:39 AM
> > Subject: Re: [HN] Saxons, etc.
> >
> > > Hello everybody in this discussion,
> > >
> > > yes, there is much more to it. High German (= hochdeutsch) is the
>common
> > written
> > > language, which children learn at school all over Germany as well as
> > Austria. In
> > > addition there are a lot of different dialects spoken in Germany, many
>of
> > which
> > > are considered "low" German or Plattdeutsch (flat German). But these
> > dialects
> > > are not at all only those of the northern German flat country but also
> > those of
> > > quite hilly parts like the areas of the Eifel (Eifeler Platt), the
> > Westerwald
> > > (Westerwaelder Platt), Bergisches Land (Bergisches Platt), the cities
>of
> > Aachen
> > > (Aachener Platt) and of Cologne (Koelsch Platt) etc. which are all
>quite
> > > different from each other, but have all the same roots. Koelsch Platt
>for
> > > instance includes many expressions which origin from the times of
> > occupation by
> > > foreign troops throughout centuries, particularly the French
>occupation
> > > under Napoleon after the French Revolution. In other parts of Germany
> > Swedish
> > > and other troops left their marks during the 30 year war from 1618 -
>1648.
> > Often
> > > the dialects are even different from one parish to another. An
>example:
> > > Hochdeutsch "i" changes to "e" in Cologne, to "oe" in the parish of
>Much,
> > 20
> > > miles east of Cologne, to "o" in the parish of Ruppicheroth, less
>than
>10
> > miles
> > > east of Much. Is = ist (hochdeutsch) = ess (Koelsch) = oess (Much) =
>oss
> > > (Ruppichteroth). Another example is the word for go changes from gehen
>to
> > jonn
> > > to johen to choen within a distance fo about 30 miles.
> > >
> > > Thus also names have frequently changed in spelling and pronunciation
> > depending
> > > on location and dialect. In addition pastors very often translated the
> > names
> > > into Latin, when they wrote down births, christenings, marriages and
> > deaths.
> > > Plattdeutsch dialects in addition are not static. They have changed
>over
> > the
> > > years due to all kinds of influences. The language still spoken in
>certain
> > areas
> > > of th US probably have preserved more from the language the particular
> > immigrant
> > > families spoke in the time they arrived 150 to 200 years ago. But they
> > also have
> > > assimmilated many American words.
> > >
> > > This can also be observed particularly well in the Amish country.
> > >
> > > Karlheinz Steimel
> > >
> > > says Hi from sunny Cologne on the Rhine where we are just now
>celebrating
> > the
> > > fifth season = Karneval (in high German "Fastnacht" for Koelsch
> > "Fastelovend").
> > >
> > > Neil and Marilyn Heimsoth schrieb:
> > > > ?Bob,
> > > >
> > > > Forgive me for jumping in here, I know your question was directed to
> > Jane.
> > > > Regarding the difference between Low and High German, it is much
>more
> > than
> > > > the example you have suggested. The word Platt means flat or low
>and
> > > > describes the country where the language is spoken, North Germany.
> > There
> > > > are several dialects in the Low German or Plattdeutsch language, but
>it
> > is
> > > > not a dialect of High German.
> > > >
> > > > We still speak Low German here in Cole Camp, Missouri and annually
> > present a
> > > > 2 hour theater production entirely in Low German. Often times we
>have
> > > > visitors who were born in Germany. If they are from southern
>Germany
> > they
> > > > do not understand Low German.
> > > >
> > > > Low German is more closely related to Dutch than to High German, and
>is
> > > > also a root language of English. Example, the word for school in
>High
> > > > German is Schule. pronounced, shoe-la). In Low German the word is
>the
> > same
> > > > as in English; School (pronounced, shoal). There are many other
> > examples of
> > > > the similarities between English and Low German.
> > >
> > > In Koelsch the word is Schull, pronounced schooll.
> > > >
> > > > For more information on Low German I suggest two excellent books
>by
> > Robert
> > > > Stockman,10748 100th Street, Alto, Michigan 49302. His first book,
> > Platt
> > > > Duetsch - Low German, is primarily an English-Low German dictionary
>but
> > > > includes a history of the language. His second book is called North
> > Germany
> > > > to North America, an excellent book on the 19th century migration.
> > > >
> > > > Here in Cole Camp, we have written a book about the Low German
> > > > immigrants in our area, who came from the land between Bremen,
>Hamburg
> > and
> > > > Bremervoerde,
> > > > and also a smaller group from the Hameln, Bad Pyrmont area. This
>book
> > is
> > > > available from the Low German club of Cole Camp, P.O. Box 65, Cole
>Camp,
> > MO
> > > > 65325. Price $40.00, includes postage.
> > > >
> > > > Neil Heimsoth
> > > > From: "Bob Marhenke" <bobmarval@juno.com>
> > > > To: <hannover-l@genealogy.net>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 9:32 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [HN] Saxons, etc.
> > > >
> > > > > Jane,
> > > > >
> > > > > I have some question regarding High German/ Low
> > > > > German/Plattdeutsch/Hochdeutsch.. Is not High German what is
>taught
>in
> > > > > German schools, or proper German and Low German what is spoken in
> > certain
> > > > > areas much like the differences between the different areas of the
> > USA??
> > > > > I know many feel that they are two different languages but I tend
>to
> > > > > think it is like the differences between New York English and New
> > > > > Orleans English etc. Both places have the same English taught in
> > schools
> > > > > and it is the dialects that are different.----Bob Marhenke
> > > > >
> > > > > > To Tom, John B, and Everyone on the list: I guess it's time I
> > > > > > jumped into the fray (now that the Butterkuchen hunger has been
> > > > > > satisfied). The lack of knowledge of pre-20th century German
> > > > > > history has always appalled me, esp. here in the US where there
>are
> > > > > > so many of us of German descent. To that end I have written an
> > > > > > historical novel about ancient Germany called THE SAXON
>CHRONICLE.
> > > > > > It is a well-researched trilogy, the first two volumes of which
>are
> > > > > > already out and the third to come very soon. Please see my
>website
> > > > > > http://saxonchronicle.hypermart.net/ for more info. And
>don't
> > > > > > turn your nose up at the fact that it is fiction. The story is
> > > > > > based in large part on my own genealogy and I purposely made it
> > > > > > fiction in order to bring those people to life, in order to show
> > > > > > their loves and lives, their successes and failures, how they
>coped
> > > > > > with the history they lived through. And there are ample
>historical
> > > > > > notes at the end of each volume separating fact from fiction.
>This
> > > > > > is the book you need to read (and it's light reading) in order
>to
> > > > > > learn lots about our Heimat. It will answer lots, if not most,
>of
> > > > > > your questions. There is an order blank on the website so that
>you
> > > > > > can order directly from the publisher.
> > > > > > The story begins in AD 782 with the ancient Saxons fighting
>against
> > > > > > Charlemagne. Here are a few of the questions the books will
>answer.
> > > > > > Why was there never a united Germany, but all little bits and
> > > > > > pieces, until 1871? It was all Charlemagne's fault. Why are
>there
> > > > > > three Saxonys? Niedersachsen was the original Saxony - the
>other
> > > > > > two didn't even exist until the late 12th cent. And John, the
> > > > > > Saxons were one of the few tribes, perhaps the only one, who did
>not
> > > > > > succumb to the lure of the riches of Rome. Except for those who
> > > > > > went to England, most of them stayed right where they were,
>mostly
> > > > > > peacefully. And yes, Tom, Plattdeutsch is the language of
> > > > > > Niedersachsen - it was the lingua franca of the Hanse back in
>the
> > > > > > 13th-16th cent - and might have been the language of all Germany
>had
> > > > > > not Luther translated the Bible into Hochdeutsch. Even now
>there
>is
> > > > > > a considerable movement to reinstate the language, much as the
> > > > > > movement in Scotland to reinstate Gaelic. You will learn why it
> > > > > > is so difficult if not impossible to find records in the small
> > > > > > towns before 1650 or so. The Thirty Years War destroyed so
>much.
> > > > > > And why the Elector of Hannover became King George I of England.
> > > > > > And how cruel he was to his exiled wife Sophie Dorothea - one of
>the
> > > > > > most tragic love stories in all history. I could go on and on
>but
> > > > > > I'm afraid the Administrator of the list will throw me off of
>it.
> > > > > > So buy the books and learn, learn. I'd love to autograph them
>for
> > > > > > you but that is a bit difficult over Email. Love to all,
>Jane
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jane Swan
> > > > > > jeswansong@earthlink.net
> > > > > > Why Wait? Move to EarthLink.
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
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