FW: Re: 19th century German censuses

hannover-l
1

I suppose you could drive over to Aachen or Dusseldorf or some other close German city where there might be a Mormon Family History Center that will have access to the films that you require. In the US, some public libraries can also get them for you, but I don't know if that is worldwide.

This seems to be a political problem more than anything else. But getting to Germany from your area is not so heard to do, a lot shorter than the ride of some US people to their closest Mormon Family History Center. Even if it is in the same state of the US, it can be a 6-hours drive or longer each way!

Maureen, currently visiting near Mons, BE!

Researching: Costello (Galway and Mayo), Cotter, Durcan/Durkin, Higgins, Lynch, Raftree/Raftery (Galway), Shannon, Sullivan, Amacher, Baur, Bove', Cremer, Ehlen, Fischer, Gansberg, Giefer, Hamacher, Hense/Henseler, Hofmann/Hoeffeler, Jackler/Jackelen, Jaegers, Koch, Kratz, Krebs, Marlo/Marlot/Morlo, Mueller/Meller, Mertes, Pick, Reetz, Rheinges,Reichardt/Reichert, Rick, Schmieden, Seitz/Zeidt, von Alleman/Vollerman, von Meer, Weiskopf, Zens, Albright, Compton, Corselius, Clemens/Clements, Daly (Galway), Early, Fallon (Galway), Greene (Waterford), Callaghan, Fitzgerald, McGrath (Waterford), Moss, Mullenix/Mullinax, Prichard, Reilly/O'Riley/Reiley, Shelly, Shook, Tye.

Hi "Brouwers",

As there is supposed to be free flow of information between European
countries, maybe you should aim that question towards your area MEP (Member
of European Parliament). In England we have come to know that the wheels
of the Belgian Parliament/beaurocracy turn very slowly - maybe they haven't
addressed the subject of "Heritage" yet. I am surprised the Morman Centre
doesn't order the films from America for you or even the UK which would
sidetrack the importation of information from a banned source.

Rena

2

Oops little correction. We'll need to scratch Maureen's suggestion on this one, as the Germans will not have access to these records either at their local LDS centers (unless someone can cite differently). :: However :: somewhere in the distant past I seem to recall someone mentioning that they were able to view a whole array of films at their local LDS FHC in Wilhelmshaven. So who knows! Our German friends will need to speak up on this.

Jb

3

What I know is, it is an instruction of the Roman Catholic church in Germany that the church registers may not be made available in Europe. On the other hand, the Protestant church acts is differently.
The lutheran church in Oldenburg district has never permitted to made film copy of the books.
In different to the lutheran church of the Osnabrück district, I believe this films you can order by LDS in Europe and Germany. I could order the film of Vörden by the LDS center here in Oldenburg.
You can check this by familysearch.org via place search.
Werner

4

What I know is,

5

Good input Werner. Every little bit helps on this. But keep in mind I believe LDS abides by the German privacy laws to the extent that any data so protected by those provisions will not be viewable at its LDS facilities throughout Western Europe. Church records - to the extent that they have been allowed to be filmed by the churches - don't fall under those guidelines to my knowledge.

The other key question would be, are there exceptions to this rule at any LDS centers in Niedersachsen, where things like census records might be able to be viewed?

Jb

6

Hi:

I am not sure I understand all the comments about privacy on the 19th century censuses. I have a complete and very detailed copy of the 1852 census published for my GF's hometown in the KOH.

Gale

7

You've got to go back to earlier in the thread Gale, back to Brouwer's original post and follow it from there. Everything you are seeing at this point is being referenced against German privacy laws as they apply to Western Europe. Our friends in The Netherlands are being given a bum rap by LDS it appears. Everything covered by the German Bundesdatenschutzgesetz [Federal Data Protection Act] is verboten there, at least as far as LDS holdings go (whereas they're freely available outside of Europe, and possibly Britain). Go figure.

Shame, because that 1852 census you referenced is a real winner for the areas it covers. Jens Mueller-Koppe and Regina Koppe at HRS [Historical Research Services] in Bremen have been compiling a master data bank of that census for some time now. More can be found here for anyone interested:
http://www.hist.de/edition-hist(e).html

Keep in mind for those outside of Europe, many 19th century German censuses are available c/o LDS on microfilm, which can be ordered in for viewing and copying at local Family History Centers.

Jb

8

The LDS has to negotiate with some countries for permission to photo-copy their records. In these negotiations, the governments often have put certain restrictions on where the films could be made available.

Barbara Rice

Lullmann Remstedt Homfeld "Seveus"? "Luertke"

9

Thanks for clarifying the LDS policy Barbara. That they have little choice but to go along with the restrictions placed by the German authorities to comply with that nation's privacy laws makes the most sense.

Jb

10

Hello Barbara,

In Germany it is the church administrations that allow or do not allow
to have their films read in European genealogical research centers. Some
southgerman dioceses such as Rottenburg do allow the LDS church to have
their vital record films read all over Europe.
Muenster for example wants people to come to their OWN archives to read
the records so that research is rather done there instead of at the LDS
genealogical research centers.
The state so far is concerned about privacy regarding dates after 1900,

they just passed a law releasing the information in civil records since
the setting up of civil registraion in Prussia (ioncluding Hannover) on
October 1st, 2006 and the German Empire on January 1st 1875 resp. 1876.

Greetings from Diepholz
in Niedersachsen Lower Saxony

Falk Liebezeit

mmongoose <mmongoose@tds.net> 12/15/06 5:18 >>>

The LDS has to negotiate with some countries for permission to
photo-copy their records. In these negotiations, the governments
often have put certain restrictions on where the films could be made

available.

Barbara Rice

Lullmann Remstedt Homfeld "Seveus"? "Luertke"

11

Falk, did you see Brouwers original post? [below] Obviously this subject is a bit more complex than simple ABC's, especially with new laws being passed on top of already varying church + state policies throughout Germany (though I suppose the same could be said here too in the US, with all the statutes and local variances we have across the land).

It sounded to me like the records Brouwers requested were census records. If - as you say - the German privacy laws are not be the thing preventing this vis-a-vis LDS, and we all know census records do not fall under the jurisdiction of the churches, is the hangup with LDS itself, serving as the governing church administrator of these films?

Jb

12

Thanks Werner, but my family is catholicso I guess I am out of luck.
Anna Marie

13

Anna Marie,

       I think that it truly depends on where you are. With the experience
of research on our all-Catholic, all-German family, I must say this. We live
in the USA and were able to access Catholic records through the LDS in the
Rheinland and in Westfalen areas with absolutely no problem. With Catholic
records in Bavaria and most especially, in Hannover, there is little or no
access to Catholic church records. We went to Wurzburg and to Osnabrück to
do research there ourselves. When I search for LDS records from the
Hannover area, once in awhile I see a note, that "this film cannot be sent
to Europe" or something like that. That probably means that the LDS was
given permission to copy records by the church or another organization with
a stipulation that they cannot be read by anybody in Germany.
      What towns in Germany are you researching?

Barbara

14

Barbara, That is the problem I am living in Holland now and also have
access to Lds center in Beliguim. The church records in Sauerland I know
are filmed and I have the information. But want to see the original birth,
marriage and death cert. to see the names of godparents and witnesses to
help me detremine which branch of the family my foreparents are related to
as I am stumbed in the beginning of the 1700's. As for the Hanover area
have not been able to find anything , and that is way I joined this group,
my gr. grandmother was born in Emblichmein, her last name was Coopmeiners,
Copmeiners, Koopmeiners Kopmeiners and two forefathers are listed at there
marriage in Holland in the 1700's one from Meppen, Ger. his last name was
Schoole and the other from Lingen last name Schole. As I still have a young
child at home am not in positon to go to Osnabruck were the Catholic
records, maybe if I lived in the northeast of Holland it would be do able
but as I am in the very southwest it would be a 8 hour drive. I appreicate
everyone's suggestions and tips. Thanks to all how responded.
Anna Marie

15

Hello Anna Marie,
I checked familysearch.org and found this:

Title Kirchenbuch, 1749
Authors Katholische Kirche Meppen (Main Author)

Notes Mikrofilm aufgenommen von Manuskripten im Bistumsarchiv, Münster.

16

JB, It was both cenus records and church records. And the answer from Lds
was no to both. Anna Marie

17

Right. They may be telling you NO, but they are not telling you WHY.

Go git 'em. Jb

18

Thank I will try that for Emblicheim. Anna Marie

19

Hello,

         The LDS do not restrict films on their own. My sister has
volunteered at a LDS center in Nebr. for 30 years. She is not Mormon, but
Catholic like me. She says restrictions on those films have to be by the
church's request or the government for census records, etc. The whole reason
the LDS copies records is that they can be read by people and - not just
Mormons. Their goal is to have all records from everywhere online for free
in 10 years!

      I didn't mean to suggest that you should go to Germany and copy
records yourself! We did that because we were traveling to Europe in 2002
anyway. It is not cheap. You pay to get into the place and get charged a
lot for each copy you make. I can't remember the exact prices, but you won't
save a whole lot doing it yourself! There is a center in Meppen that has the
Catholic records from the Osnabrück diocese and they charge 16 Euro per hour
to do the research for you. That is not bad since they are much more
familiar with the records and know where to look! You can also go there and
do research yourself:
http://www.KGVerband-Meppen.de/familienforschung.html

    I have to admit I have not ordered any records from there because I am a
stubborn do-it-yourselfer. However, I have had a lot of help from other
people and I never stop searching the internet.

    I have gathered a lot of sources and records from the Catholic area
along the border with the Netherlands, commonly called Emsland. Werner
from this list told me about Emsland some years ago--thank you very much!
I'm always willing to help.

Barbara

20

Thank you for the flowers. Have a nice Christmas season.
Werner