Stagge Stockum/Osnabrück

hannover-l
1

Good day listmembers,
I'm curious. I've been trying to find out some ancestral information about
my cousin's grandfather, but to no avail. How does one go about getting the
info as in the message from Fred Rump below. It appears to be passenger list
info but not from Ellis Island. I'd surely like some assistance with my
brick wall -- EBERHART KUHLMAN & his wife SOPHIA DIANA HARDE -- their
information as I know it below ~~

Descendants of Eberhart Henry Kuhlman
                    
    1 KUHLMAN, Eberhart Henry b: December 18, 1833 in Hanover, Hannover,
Germany [Now Niedersachsen]
d: June 25, 1919 Toledo, Lucas, County, Ohio
.. +HARDE, Sophia Diana b: March 29, 1836 in Osnabruck Stadt,
Hannover, Preussen @ 8:00 a.m.
m: June 25, 1857 in Salem Lutheran Church, Toledo, Lucas County, Ohio
d: September 9, 1895 Toledo, Lucas, County, Ohio

Thank you in advance,
Beverly Mack Zanon

In a message dated 2/22/2003 2:56:02 PM Central Standard Time,
fredrump@earthlink.net writes:

2

Hello,
      You can go to this website which allows you to search for persons who
got permission to emigrate from 3 places: Hannover, Osnabruck, and
Wolfbuttel.
        http://app.staatsarchive.niedersachsen.de/findbuch/

     On that page, if you want Hannover, it is already situated on the right
choice, so click on Abschicken. Then, on the next page go to Index. Next,
fill in the box with the surname of the person and choose Nach personen.
Then click on suche. I already did Kuhlmann and you will find a number by
that name. Eberhard is not one of them, but there are many Heinrichs. Click
on the number at the far right and it will give you that same information
that Fred printed up. That will tell you the town from which they came.
You may have a problem with knowing which one is correct. Supposedly, you
can order copies of the records for a fee, but I am not sure where that is
on that site. I wrote an email to the Osnabruck address some time ago and
they did answer my letter. The webpage for the archives (all 3) is this:

       http://www.staatsarchive.niedersachsen.de/home/

Then you can find each of the email address for each of the areas,
Osnabruck, Hannover, and Wolfbuttel. If you choose not to write, you might
at least get some idea where you might look locate the birthplace of your
ancestors.
Good luck,
Barbara

3

Where do you find any towns in those records?

The information given when I click on the find number at the right is
a file number for the original records in the archives. Nowhere do I
see any towns listed.

Fred

4788 Corian Court
Naples, FL 34114
239-775-7838; 239-269-4781 (cell)
FredRump@earthlink.net

4

Hello Fred,
     Somewhere in my many letters here, I have referred to the fact that
Osnabruck is not so clear as to finding the name of the town. On that
Osnabruck page, if you click on Gliederung, you will get the list of
Osnabruck towns. But try doing Dedeke e.g. on the Hannover page. You will
get 4 returns and if you click on the number, there will be a town clearly
listed. Should that not refer to the place of origin? I have used other
names there with the same kind of results. Osnabruck's website is less
clear as I explained in a previous letter to Susan Westhoff and the Stagge
name. In most cases (in Osnabruck) there are only the first 3 or 4 letters
of what would suggest a town (In the same spot where the town is listed in
the Hannover records.)
    A live conversation would be much easier than trying to explain this
whole thing! I'm sorry if I am not making myself clear. You must
understand that I do not write German and only read it with some
familiarity because I've been doing a lot of genealogy and have traveled to
Germany twice and researched records from two dioceses there. I also use an
on-line translator from time to time that will give me somewhat of an idea.
Then I fiddle around until I have some understanding with how it all works.
     I had used the Osnabruck site for my own ancestors and when I could not
find anything, I wrote an email to the archives. They graciously wrote back
and verified what I had concluded. I think they would do the same again,
especially from someone not familiar with the process.
     I'm just trying to be helpful here. Finding an immigrant's place of
birth is the a necessary hurdle before you can go on!
Barbara

5

Hello Fred,
Somewhere in my many letters here, I have referred to the fact that
Osnabruck is not so clear as to finding the name of the town.

OK, I do see a difference here now. These are different archives even
though they all fall under the general heading of Niedersachsen.
Somewhere along the line they were all put under the same
administrative heading but I assume that much they do is still
organized from older times when they were independent of each other.

On that
Osnabruck page, if you click on Gliederung, you will get the list of
Osnabruck towns.

I'm still trying to figure out just where the numbers under
Gliederung fit into the schema.

But try doing Dedeke e.g. on the Hannover page. You
will get 4 returns and if you click on the number, there will be a
town clearly listed. Should that not refer to the place of origin? I
have used other names there with the same kind of results.

Yes, the results under the hannover search definitely give a
location. My assumption is that hannover has much more archival
material for the entire former kingdom not in the other two sub-
archives. They also must have their archives organized by the towns
they came from. So your Dedeke, Catharine Marie Dorothee has a
location number of 1402 which brings us to Bestell-Nr.:
Hauptstaatsarchiv Hannover, Hann. 74 Burgwedel Nr. 1475. Yet under
Gliederung we find the Amt Burgwedel listed as 30.... So what gives?
What do the numbers mean? I would assume that only the archivists can
explain the system. :slight_smile:

Osnabruck's website is less clear as I explained in a previous letter
to Susan Westhoff and the Stagge name. In most cases (in Osnabruck)
there are only the first 3 or 4 letters of what would suggest a town
(In the same spot where the town is listed in the Hannover records.)
A live conversation would be much easier than trying to explain this
whole thing! I'm sorry if I am not making myself clear.

You're doing fine. In my searches under Osnabrück I find no relevence
to location. Only to various order or file numbers which presumably
identify the location of a file in a rack.

You must
understand that I do not write German and only read it with some
familiarity because I've been doing a lot of genealogy and have
traveled to Germany twice and researched records from two dioceses
there. I also use an on-line translator from time to time that will
give me somewhat of an idea. Then I fiddle around until I have some
understanding with how it all works.

Fiddling around is what we all do. :-)It's when you explain your
fiddling that others can follow the path and learn something
themselves.

I'm just trying to be helpful here. Finding an immigrant's place of
birth is the a necessary hurdle before you can go on!

Just last Wednesday I spoke on German genealogy stuff at the Sarasota
Genealogy Society. There was the German interest group which normally
has about 30 people attending. I asked for a show of hands as to how
many had made the leap across to a place of birth for their
ancestors. The majority hadn't. I was quite surprised.

Most Americans hit a brick wall when they try to go beyond the
Hannover or Prussia place of origin. It's there somewhere, but where?
So we fiddle here and look there and hope to someday make a
connection. That's just the way it is.

Fred

4788 Corian Court
Naples, FL 34114
239-775-7838; 239-269-4781 (cell)
FredRump@earthlink.net

6

Hi Fred,
      Thanks for your response to my ramblings. Now I'd like you to help me
figure out the Osnabruck site. I still feel that somehow one could connect
the town with those numbers on the right side with each person.
      First of all, go into the Gliederung where the towns are listed.
Click on one of the towns. Sometimes it gives nothing. But try Lathen, e.g.
It lists the same kind of coded statements as it does in the Hannover site.
Those numbers appear in a range of the same numbers. All the numbers start
there with 38 and 39. Therefore, by trial and error, one could determine a
town. But there must be an easier way. Maybe, somewhere it would give the
town together with the numbers that apply to that town. I still am convinced
that those numbers correspond with the towns.
     I feel like a spy for the CIA trying to crack a code! Bear with me.
Try this. On the Osnabruck site do a search for Stagge. See the numbers on
the right. Choose the number 6240, click and it gives you:
    Rep 350 Frer Nr 62
     Now go to Gliederung and get the list of towns. On the left, go down
to the one (starts with a 06) for Kirchspiel Lengerich. You will get the
list of records for Lengerich. You will see the number 6240 and the
statement will be identical as the one above which matches one of the Stagge
people. Granted, there are others that have the same coded statement, but
if they lead back to Lengerich, that has to be significant!
     What does Kirchspiel mean? Kirche is church, I know, but what does
the spiel make it mean. The online translator says it means "church play".
Hardly!
     I really would like to "crack the code" on this! I know you can order
records from the various archives. But this would be easier if one could
just find a birthplace with some assurance that it is the right choice.
Maybe Osnabruck leaves it a mystery so you have to order from them. A
record from there would certainly give the birthdate of the person as well
as things like the date of immigration.
      What do you think?
Barbara

7

First of all, go into the Gliederung where the towns are listed.
Click on one of the towns. Sometimes it gives nothing. But try
Lathen, e.g. It lists the same kind of coded statements as it does in
the Hannover site. Those numbers appear in a range of the same
numbers. All the numbers start there with 38 and 39. Therefore, by
trial and error, one could determine a town. But there must be an
easier way. Maybe, somewhere it would give the town together with the
numbers that apply to that town. I still am convinced that those
numbers correspond with the towns.

I see, I see said the blind man. I did not know one could click on
the Gliederungs numbers and get a detail of the repository under
those classifications.

     I feel like a spy for the CIA trying to crack a code! Bear with
     me.
Try this. On the Osnabruck site do a search for Stagge. See the
numbers on the right. Choose the number 6240, click and it gives you:
    Rep 350 Frer Nr 62
     Now go to Gliederung and get the list of towns. On the left, go
     down
to the one (starts with a 06) for Kirchspiel Lengerich. You will get
the list of records for Lengerich.

Trick question: how did you decide to look for Lengerich? Did you
think 06... leads to 6240?

I am still not able to find any key which leads me to understand what
the significance of REP ### Nr. ### under Bestellnummer means. I'm
dealing a lot with Kirchspiel Bissendorf in Amt Osnabrück. I just
printed out 6 pages of of sources listed under this place. The series
of LFD_NR goes from 21908-22113 but those numbers seem to have no
relevance except for their numeric sequence. If I had all those
series for each place I could then see from the access number given
for each person where they have documents which refer to them. Make
sense? The Gliederung doesn't seem to have any relevance to those
numbers.

You will see the number 6240 and
the statement will be identical as the one above which matches one of
the Stagge people. Granted, there are others that have the same coded
statement, but if they lead back to Lengerich, that has to be
significant!

Yes it does. It means that there is a connection.

     What does Kirchspiel mean? Kirche is church, I know, but what
     does
the spiel make it mean. The online translator says it means "church
play". Hardly!

Kirchspiel is simply an older word for parish.

     I really would like to "crack the code" on this! I know you can
     order
records from the various archives. But this would be easier if one
could just find a birthplace with some assurance that it is the right
choice. Maybe Osnabruck leaves it a mystery so you have to order from
them. A record from there would certainly give the birthdate of the
person as well as things like the date of immigration.
      What do you think?

I think we'll need a list of sequence numbers which start and end
with a place. If I have a few moments later today maybe I'll take a
look at that.

Fred

4788 Corian Court
Naples, FL 34114
239-775-7838; 239-269-4781 (cell)
FredRump@earthlink.net

8

Fred,
    Isn't it fun? I think we may get somewhere yet. You asked why I
picked Lengerich and yes, it was because of the 06 in the left hand column.
I just looked at all the numbers and see that the first town on the list
starts at 1 and the last town with a 5 digit number. So, what we have to
do is guess the number in a range until we hit the right one. I would think
that other numbers may somehow connect to a certain ship or destination or
date or some such thing. All these records are for passports, I believe.
Trouble for me is, I found nothing for my people in the search of all of
them. Oh, well, it will be helpful in some cases and not in others.
Common names would have to call for records, since they don't give
birthdates or anything else.
     Yes, I, too, have to tend to other tasks today. But I'm happy that
the picture is getting a wee bit clearer. Thank you, Fred!
Barbara

9

Fred,
    Isn't it fun? I think we may get somewhere yet. You asked why I
picked Lengerich and yes, it was because of the 06 in the left hand

column.

I just looked at all the numbers and see that the first town on the list
starts at 1 and the last town with a 5 digit number. So, what we have to
do is guess the number in a range until we hit the right one. I would

think

that other numbers may somehow connect to a certain ship or destination or
date or some such thing. All these records are for passports, I believe.
Trouble for me is, I found nothing for my people in the search of all of
them. Oh, well, it will be helpful in some cases and not in others.
Common names would have to call for records, since they don't give
birthdates or anything else.
     Yes, I, too, have to tend to other tasks today. But I'm happy

that

the picture is getting a wee bit clearer. Thank you, Fred!
Barbara

I have been following the discourse between Barbara and Fred with interest
because I found two ggrandfathers listed in the records with Burgwedel
showing up when I click on the far right number. From my knowledge of those
people I am pretty sure that Burgwedel refers to the Kreis or Administrative
District of that time as they both came from the parish of Brelingen which
was in the Kreis Burgwedel.

My question is, how does one order these documents, or can you? I find in
another link a list of costs for various kinds of things but nothing about
how to go about accessing them. Also nothing about how many documents might
be in one of these repositories. Any clues?

Paul Scheele

10

Paul,
     If you go to this page, it will give you an email address of the
various archives;

       http://www.staatsarchive.niedersachsen.de/home/

  I have the one for Osnabruck handy here:
         poststelle@staatsarchiv-os.niedersachsen.de

     I would just write and ask them what the procedure is. When I wrote
them some time last year, they answered and seemed helpful. I just wanted
to verify that my family was NOT in their archives. You'd think somewhere
it would be more clear. Maybe at the website above, there is an
explanation of fees. I've never spent much time looking at that (it's
in German).
     If you do find out how to order and pay for the records, please let us
know on this list!
     Also, I wonder why Brelingen is not listed for your ancestors since
there appears to be a church there. There are not LDS records for
Berlingen. The LDS lists it as Burgwedel(Kreis Burgdorf). But it is noted on
the map as an area like Wedemark. Mmmm....
We need a Hannover expert! There are 2 towns on the map that I see for
Burgwedel (both Klein and Gross).
     Barbara

11

That's the question I have an email waiting to be answered by the
archive people. Will report back as soon as I know something more.

Fred

4788 Corian Court
Naples, FL 34114
239-775-7838; 239-269-4781 (cell)
FredRump@earthlink.net

12

Thank you, Fred! We will all await your answer!
Maureen

13

I have twice found two people with the same number. One could be a married
couple on one permit. The other is two men. Does anyone have any ideas,
since we know gay marriage was probably not recognized. Do you think there
was one permit for an entire family? If so, then why does an (apparent)
brother have the next number? Did he leave later? Or was a minor child
included on the permit of his father or older brother? Anyone know for
sure?
Maureen
Maureen

14

My grandfather (whose dad immigrated from Hannover) loved to take us dancing
to restaurants and beer gardens that had German dance bands.

Grandpa would call it "spieling" when he danced into a corner and danced a
kind of "revolving in place" series of steps with his partner.

As a very young girl, I got the idea it was something that young men did
with girls they liked ..... to get into a more private place for flirting or
romance, perhaps.

Maureen

     What does Kirchspiel mean? Kirche is church, I know, but what does

the spiel make it mean. The online translator says it means "church play".
Hardly!

Kirchspiel is simply an older word for parish.

15

I think people may be misreading these source documents without even
seeing them. I have numerous people listed under the same source
file. Remember, this is not necessarily one piece of paper describing
some singel act. These most probably are thick folders which include
numerous people within them. Also, most of the people I have found in
the Osnabrück emigration records never went anywhere. They simply
lived and dies in one place yet are listed along with others in some
document or set of documents. So the heading may say Auswanderquellen
(sources of emigration) but the reality may well be something
entirely different.

I'm translating the foreword which is naturally written in German and
it seems to me that these words are describing something entirely
different from the available records. I wish all that stuff were
about emigration. It would be a vast gold mine for all of us. Sadly
there is much more there which has to be about other things.

fred

4788 Corian Court
Naples, FL 34114
239-775-7838; 239-269-4781 (cell)
FredRump@earthlink.net

16

Aha! Thank you, Fred!

17

I think people may be misreading these source documents without even
seeing them. I have numerous people listed under the same source
file. Remember, this is not necessarily one piece of paper describing
some singel act. These most probably are thick folders which include
numerous people within them. Also, most of the people I have found in
the Osnabr�ck emigration records never went anywhere. They simply
lived and dies in one place yet are listed along with others in some
document or set of documents. So the heading may say Auswanderquellen
(sources of emigration) but the reality may well be something
entirely different.

I wrote to the archives in Hannover asking for the document number that was
listed for my ggrandfathers name. The archivist wrote back and informed me
there were 700 pages associated with that number. He asked whether I wanted
to narrow that down to some specific names. Which is what I did.

I take it from this exchange that there are emigrant papers for many names
in each of the folders, just as Fred suggests.

BTW, I was told that each copy costs 0.3 Euro.

Paul Scheele