Schwarzen Chronicle Question

hannover-l
1

"Cactus Flower" <barbie8674@hotmail.com> schrieb:

Lieb Hans,

What is the Schwarzen Chronicle?

It is a history about crime in Hamburg between 1919 and 1945 including political crime also as other civil criminal events.

This data was included..

26.1.19 Mord an Anna HOFFMANN geb.BOJENS, Querstr. 1; Täter Otto LORENZ

unfortunately no more detils given in the book. For more one has to study the documents of the police archive or perhaps state archive, if already handed over there and were found remarkable enough to be stored there.

The ship arrival list for my fathers uncle Karl Schmidt indicates he was
born in Geesthacht.

His wife Dora (Klatt) Schmidt address is listed:
Bergedorf Querstr II. The year is 1928.

Would this address neighbor Querstr. 1?

It was not earlier than 1939, when outskirts as for example Bergedorf were ibnorporated to the territory of the City of Hamburg. The law made therefore was called "Groß-Hamburg-Ge-setz". It was then that streetnames were inspected and doublings of names "repaired" by renaming some of them. "Querstraße" should have been existent at sveral places before. One in Bergedorf, another was in St.Pauly nearby the famous nightlife of the "Reeperbahn". As I don`t know if there was also one or two more "Querstr.", I cannot say definetely yes or no. It is possible, but as the author in other cases mentions Bergedorf as the locality even when being already part of Hamburg, I would assume: more probably "no".

At: Geesthacht - Wikipedia

Mentions 1918-1933 hotbed of radical leftist parties .... nickname Little
Moscow...

That is right if you take the pure facts. Like in every larger town also Hamburg was a centre for political activities of the times. Because of the larger percentage of workers among the people in comparison with the rurale population in the plane country, there were of course also centered interests of worker parties. I don`t know the article in wikipedia and cannot say, what is meant exactly by "hotbed" in this context, found the translation "Brutstätte".
So it is not a too analytical term for historical activities, but if used one has to state, it was something like that for all parties and polzical directions. Streetfights between right wing and left wing parties weren`t daily but regularly in the late twenties and early thirtees. These mass conflicts had as a proposition almost equal sides in these fights. The nickname "Little Moscow" is not documented as a special Hamburg local term, but should have been in use in the times very often by the enemies of socialist and communist parties and in the end by the national socialist wherever three people stood together and were suspected to be in sympathy with these.

Mentions 1928 destruction of the historical town center.

It must have been then, that a large street was broken straight through the city of Bergedorf.

Some of the surnames mentioned in your posts about Schwarzen Chronicle I
have come across in the midwest as I methodically search for possible
connections to my Sahs/Sass and Schmidt ancestors many of those
surnames..though not any particular proof that they actually relate to my
own family..

I think Geesthacht (if I am correct) is about 10 miles from Bergedorf. I
think I have an old picture that grandparents marked Bergedorfer
Strasse**..Also one marked Bergedorfer Schloss-park.

If it is still the same Bergedorferstr. as today, it is exactly the street mentioned above, passing through the former centre of Bergedorf. The Bergedorfer Schloßpark should be same today, as it was and is situated north to the very centre, but still being part of it too.

* Bergedorfer Strasse - If I understand correctly ... might be associated
with Geesthacht?

Again there might be a doubling of "Bergedorfer Str.", one in Bergedorf,respectively Hamburg and another one in Geesthacht, which is already part of the country Schleswig-Holstein.

Gosh..

Could I have criminal ancestors?

I would be surprised, if not, because if you dig enough, you will find some in every genealo-gy. Some hundred (or only 50 ?) years back "survival of the fittest" was not a mere principle for the beasty world. If the medieval living was right or not and by that crime should be a thing of definition. Right in history often was, what the mighty defined as right. A lawyer of today would speak about as murder, burglary or other criminal act. So the answer is unfortunately as in every case: yes.

Did you find and data of the surnames Schmidt, Sahs, Sass, Sasse, Klatt or
Potrafke in that Schwarzen Chronicle?

The directory lists only differnt SCHMIDT
- Schmidt, Pol.Owm.,p. 409 Street-Policeman
- Schmidt, Ernst,p. 272, played a role as KPD member Nov.1931 as ahelp for escape to Moscow
                    of a man named HANSEN, who had become a bankrobber on 30.October 1931
- Schmidt, Krim-Sekr. p.267 Police Detective
- Schmidt, Steinmetz = stone mason 131, mentioned as a master of an yuvenile criminal living
                  on a place named Käthnerort

Potrafke is not given, the only similar name is POTRAHR. He was the driver of the still wellknown family REEMTSMA. Perhaps you remember, some years ago there was a kidnapping with lots of millions, a world wide story. Here, it was a crime of murder. The housekeeping woman Else KLEIST,born in Gülzow, Mecklenburg in 1906, was murdered. POTRAHR the driver of the family made important statements to the police to find the murderer a man named BECKER.

Warmest Regards,

Barbie-Lew

The same to you and good luck on your ways.

hans Peter Albers, Bienenbüttel

2

OMG :open_mouth:

So the secret is out Barbie. Care to tell us more? <g>

"Little Moscow" says enough. All Spartacists must unite! Not to worry, if HPA keeps digging up those Hamburger Kriminalgeschichte pages, soon every one of our families will be embarrassed. You find the same thing in the States when you plunge deep enough into the record crypts (and really, anywhere else on the globe where good recordkeeping is to be found). My own family lines certainly have their fair share, from revolutionists to all around trouble-makers. "Lassen Sie uns Wellen bilden" is inscribed on our family coat of arms (purchased at discount from Mayfair). Hmmm goes a long way towards explaining certain things, now doesn't it? <blush>

But HP is most certainly correct here. It seems it is only a matter of time before we uncover a number of "skeletons in the closet" when digging through dusty vaults. But so what? All this amounts to is a rather telling reflection of human nature in its full kaleidoscope display. And let's be real: who here isn't guilty of a few notable indiscretions along the way, perhaps even "criminal" in at least one rendering of the definition (or at least in the mind); and if not, then perhaps simple acts of deceit?

Now I choose to hedge a bit on the definition of "criminal" since political leanings and actions will often be involved, and in this regard, many "criminal" definitions might as well be thrown out the window. A revolutionist (or crusader to flip the coin) is only as good as the cause he or she fights for; the righteousness or justification of the cause will often be nebulous at best, and almost always open to debate. Generally it comes down to what side of the fence you happen to find yourself on or align yourself to, or if you buy into what the state (ergo status quo) defines as politically "criminal" (Unionists, Atheists, Commies and Klansmen all come to mind as well known bogeymen of this stripe at various times, regardless of the actual actions of the individuals involved).

One can imagine what old King George III and the British Crown thought of those revolutionary "criminals" who comprised the Boston Tea Party, or the "criminal" scoundrels who had the audacity to lay down their signatures on that fabled American Declaration of Independence. If you ask me, what we really need more than ever is a new 21st century class called "Corporate Globalists" to replace the worn out "Robber Baron" category of the past. Few of those cats would be exempt by definition.

This also reminds me of those splendid snippets we often hear that poke fun at that class of furry cretins called lawyers (and their big brothers in arms called politicians), all of whom rate just above used car salesmen in surveys of "trustworthiness." It seems just about everyone disparages them until they actually need one, and an overwhelming amount of people agree they stink as a whole -- except their own (sadly enough).

Please count me in here too though. Lawyer jokes remain priceless, and most politicians I have little (ok no) need for, unless it's to help line my squiggly pocket. I trust any given farmer on his tractor far more. :wink:

3

Lieb Hans,

I visisted website at :

http://www.geesthacht.de

There is selection for Ortschronik.

I clicked :

1928 Bei der zweiten gro�en Brandkatastrophe wird der historische Stadtkern zerst�rt.

Some data is:

Vermutlich war es ein undichter Schornstein, der um 15 Uhr an der F�hrstra�e das mit Reet gedeckte Holertsche Haus** in Brand gesetzt hatte. Der Wind verteilte die Funken �ber die Stadt, innerhalb von drei Stunden brannten an der Bergedorfer Stra�e, am Markt, an Elbe-, Sand- und Hafenstra�e sowie in der Neuen Stra�e 16 Wohn- und Wirtschaftsh�user ab.

The babelfisch translations tells me:

It was supposed a leaky chimney, which had set the Holert house in fire, covered with Reet, at 15 o'clock at the driving race. The wind distributed the sparks over the city, within three hours burned down at the Bergedorfer road, at the market, at Elbe -, sand and port route as well as in the new road 16 living and restaurant economics.

Today I recieved my GM Dora's brother ( Karl Schmidt, born Geesthacht) death certificate.

His parents were recorded on his death certificate. The parent names were not recorded on my grandmothers death certificate.

The parents are recorded as:
Karl H. Schmidt - Father
Louise Holert**** - Mother

Does this 1928 data actually translate correctly? A house belonging to a family named Holert was cause of this fire?

I wonder if this explains Karl Schmidt leaving Germany in 1928?

Barbie-Lew

"Cactus Flower" <barbie8674@hotmail.com> schrieb:
> Lieb Hans,
>
> What is the Schwarzen Chronicle?

It is a history about crime in Hamburg between 1919 and 1945 including political crime also as other civil criminal events.
>
> This data was included..
>
> 26.1.19 Mord an Anna HOFFMANN geb.BOJENS, Querstr. 1; T�ter Otto LORENZ

unfortunately no more detils given in the book. For more one has to study the documents of the police archive or perhaps state archive, if already handed over there and were found remarkable enough to be stored there.

> The ship arrival list for my fathers uncle Karl Schmidt indicates he was
> born in Geesthacht.
>
> His wife Dora (Klatt) Schmidt address is listed:
> Bergedorf Querstr II. The year is 1928.
>
> Would this address neighbor Querstr. 1?

It was not earlier than 1939, when outskirts as for example Bergedorf were ibnorporated to the territory of the City of Hamburg. The law made therefore was called "Gro�-Hamburg-Ge-setz". It was then that streetnames were inspected and doublings of names "repaired" by renaming some of them. "Querstra�e" should have been existent at sveral places before. One in Bergedorf, another was in St.Pauly nearby the famous nightlife of the "Reeperbahn". As I don`t know if there was also one or two more "Querstr.", I cannot say definetely yes or no. It is possible, but as the author in other cases mentions Bergedorf as the locality even when being already part of Hamburg, I would assume: more probably "no".

> At: Geesthacht - Wikipedia
>
> Mentions 1918-1933 hotbed of radical leftist parties .... nickname Little
> Moscow...

That is right if you take the pure facts. Like in every larger town also Hamburg was a centre for political activities of the times. Because of the larger percentage of workers among the people in comparison with the rurale population in the plane country, there were of course also centered interests of worker parties. I don`t know the article in wikipedia and cannot say, what is meant exactly by "hotbed" in this context, found the translation "Brutst�tte".
So it is not a too analytical term for historical activities, but if used one has to state, it was something like that for all parties and polzical directions. Streetfights between right wing and left wing parties weren`t daily but regularly in the late twenties and early thirtees. These mass conflicts had as a proposition almost equal sides in these fights. The nickname "Little Moscow" is not documented as a special Hamburg local term, but should have been in use in the times very often by the enemies of socialist and communist parties and in the end by the national socialist wherever three people stood together and were suspected to be in sympathy with these.
>
> Mentions 1928 destruction of the historical town center.

It must have been then, that a large street was broken straight through the city of Bergedorf.
>
> Some of the surnames mentioned in your posts about Schwarzen Chronicle I
> have come across in the midwest as I methodically search for possible
> connections to my Sahs/Sass and Schmidt ancestors many of those
> surnames..though not any particular proof that they actually relate to my
> own family..
>
> I think Geesthacht (if I am correct) is about 10 miles from Bergedorf. I
> think I have an old picture that grandparents marked Bergedorfer
> Strasse**..Also one marked Bergedorfer Schloss-park.

If it is still the same Bergedorferstr. as today, it is exactly the street mentioned above, passing through the former centre of Bergedorf. The Bergedorfer Schlo�park should be same today, as it was and is situated north to the very centre, but still being part of it too.

> * Bergedorfer Strasse - If I understand correctly ... might be associated
> with Geesthacht?
>
Again there might be a doubling of "Bergedorfer Str.", one in Bergedorf,respectively Hamburg and another one in Geesthacht, which is already part of the country Schleswig-Holstein.

> Gosh..
>
> Could I have criminal ancestors?

I would be surprised, if not, because if you dig enough, you will find some in every genealo-gy. Some hundred (or only 50 ?) years back "survival of the fittest" was not a mere principle for the beasty world. If the medieval living was right or not and by that crime should be a thing of definition. Right in history often was, what the mighty defined as right. A lawyer of today would speak about as murder, burglary or other criminal act. So the answer is unfortunately as in every case: yes.

> Did you find and data of the surnames Schmidt, Sahs, Sass, Sasse, Klatt or
> Potrafke in that Schwarzen Chronicle?

The directory lists only differnt SCHMIDT
- Schmidt, Pol.Owm.,p. 409 Street-Policeman
- Schmidt, Ernst,p. 272, played a role as KPD member Nov.1931 as ahelp for escape to Moscow
                     of a man named HANSEN, who had become a bankrobber on 30.October 1931
- Schmidt, Krim-Sekr. p.267 Police Detective
- Schmidt, Steinmetz = stone mason 131, mentioned as a master of an yuvenile criminal living
                   on a place named K�thnerort

Potrafke is not given, the only similar name is POTRAHR. He was the driver of the still wellknown family REEMTSMA. Perhaps you remember, some years ago there was a kidnapping with lots of millions, a world wide story. Here, it was a crime of murder. The housekeeping woman Else KLEIST,born in G�lzow, Mecklenburg in 1906, was murdered. POTRAHR the driver of the family made important statements to the police to find the murderer a man named BECKER.
>
> Warmest Regards,
>
> Barbie-Lew

The same to you and good luck on your ways.

hans Peter Albers, Bienenb�ttel