Hi Rolf:
Have sent a few messages off-list. Hope they were received.
Elsa
Ja, ich habe sie erhalten. Allerdings wei� ich nicht viel mit dieser
Information anzufangen. Wie soll man das gezielt auswerten?
Hoffentlich bringt der geldliche Einsatz etwas. Allerdings k�nnten sich
kleine neue Schwierigkeiten auft�rmen:
Bei einer Beh�rde kann man in der Regel nur �ber eine Inkassostelle Geld in
den Laden bringen. Wenn man direkt Geld zusendet, dann wei� der
Sachbearbeiter meist nicht viel damit anzufangen. Er macht m�glicherweise so
etwas �fters "au�er der Reihe" und kann damit umgehen.
Bei einer Kirche ist es �hnlich. Sie ist aber schon etwas flexibler als ein
staatliches Amt. M�glicherweise kann ein Pfarrer es in die Gabenkasse legen,
dann hat er das pekuni�re Problem f�r sich gel�st.
Am einfachsten w�re es beim Praktikanten, Denn da ist das Geld f�r ihn
selbst als "Anerkennungsgeb�hr" gedacht.
Warten wir mal ab, was dabei herauskommt. Denn entweder wurde zuviel oder zu
wenig bezahlt. Man braucht daher immer vorher eine Rechnung �ber den
f�lligen Betrag. Aber vielleicht kann hierder Sachbearbeiter mal �ber seinen
Schatten springen.
Zum Sepp: Auch ich kann da nicht recht weiterhelfen, weil mir das Zeichen
auf dem Kragen nicht bekannt ist. Wenn es wirklich ein Totenkopf sein
sollte, sp�che dies, auch wegen der dunklen Uniform, f�r Nazis Elitetruppen.
�brigens scheint mir auf dem anderen Kragen das gleiche Zeichen angeheftet
zu sein. Aber �ber diesen Bereich gibt es bestimmt ausgezeichnete
Experten.Ich bin es sicher nicht!
�brigens war mein Vater Artillerist. Er muss als Offizier sehr beliebt
gewesen sein, denn "seine" Soldaten wollten ihn auch nach dem Krieg zu ihren
Treffen meist haben (fast immer kam er nicht). Meine Mutter sagte, dass
diese Kameraden �berzeugt waren, er h�tte ihnen damals ihr Leben gerettet.
Was er wohl nie verdaut hatte, war, dass er als Ehrenmann als
Generalstabsoffizier zum "Verbrecher" erkl�rt worden war und kein Studium
-b-eginnen durfte. Auch hatte er gro�e Schwierigkeiten mit einigen
Vorgesetzten, die wohl bereit waren, die Leute zu "verheizen".
Da f�llt mir der Kunz (Konrad) Schott ein, der als Raubritter ber�chtigt
war. Obwohl er nur wenige, gezielte Streith�ndel hatte, bekam die ganze
Sippschaft durch Propaganda die �ble Nachrede mit, die sich bis heute in
manchen K�pfen noch erhalten hat. Erstaunlich, wie das menschliche
Langzeitged�chtnis arbeitet, und dann meist falsch! Ich halte seinen
Zeitgenossen, G�tz von Berlichingen, f�r einen wirklich gro�en,
bedenkenlosen Raufbold und Draufg�nger, der den Streit wegen seines eigenen
Vorteils gesucht hatte. Und dieser, da er seine Lebenserinnerungen �ber
seinen Pfarrer schriftlich niedergebracht hatte, und weil seine Biografie
der junge Goethe zuf�llig zu lesen bekam, daraus dann wie bei einer
Indianergeschichte ein sehr idealisiertes Bild zeichnete und ihn dann als
Helden (der Bauern) auf die B�hne stellte, hat ein ganz anderes
Erscheinungsbild und Echo bei der Nachwelt! Dagegen erscheint Kunz in dieser
Nachwelt als ein Gek�pfter, was sehr wahrscheinlich nie wahr war. O tempora
o mores!
Rolf
Hi Rolf:
I have not yet received a reply from Dobson in England. If I hear nothing
by next week, I will email them again.
Your remarks regarding your father have stirred many thoughts in me. I
believe that, at this point in my life (54 years of age), I am, in some
fashion, reconnecting with my "Germanness". The WWII experience extolled
its price on Germans all over the world in countless different ways. With
your father, I am assuming that he was declared a "criminal" by the allied
victors. Certainly, that must have been an extremely high price to pay.
Having been raised by German parents in an "ally" country, I was exposed to
both perspectives relating to WWII. The "Allied" perspective was
criminality with respect to Germans and the German perspective was
allegiance and duty. Unfortunately, the "Allied" perspective viewed
everything "German" as "Criminal" and left no room for individuality. This
perspective is still alive in some circles but is slowly dying a much-needed
death.
I have little first-hand understanding of what occurred in Germany after the
war. We came to Canada in 1953 when I was 5 and I was spared the physical
and emotional hardships of the "reconstructionist" period in Germany. My
own early childhood memories are happy ones tinged with no greater concern
than where the next piece of chocolate was coming from.
The situation in Canada was not quite as happy in early years. It was 1953,
the war years were not long past, and the Allied perspective was rampant.
Germans were hated here in this country, where the majority of the
population were of Anglo descent. My parents, who were not highly educated,
had not considered the backlash that they and their children would
experience when they made their decision to emigrate. I cannot recall many
days during my younger years when I was not called a Nazi. The
stygmatization even spread into my children's early years.
One of the results of these experiences of "hatred" was that most young
Germans, like myself, made a studied and deliberate effort to be as
"un-German" as possible. In Toronto, which is highly multi-cultural and has
many distinct cultural areas, there is no "German" area. We have
assimilated, mainly into the Anglo grouping. Unfortunately, we grew up not
really feeling that we were a definite member of either group. I was not
like my parents or their friends because I had the over-arching experience
of being educated in this country from the perspective of this country. I
was not like my classmates because I had a different cultural experience in
my home. I view my current efforts in exploring my roots as an experience
of integration of the two personae.
I am grateful that my parents and their friends told their stories from
their perspective. I feel privileged now that I am able to connect with
people like yourself in Germany and others like myself in the Western
Hemisphere at a time when "ghosts" are being laid to rest and are being
replaced by a more enlightened viewpoint. I have become enriched by this
"fleeting" von Schottenstein connection because it has opened up a wealth of
history which I never knew about my country of origin and has replaced the
"shame" I used to feel with a sense of pride and wonderment. I thank you
for making that possible.
I will pass on a little anecdote about my father that my children and I
chuckled over this past week when we were examining his war pictures. My
father was a man who utilized facial expressions more often than words to
express his thoughts. The children (now adults) knew Opa's expressions
well. I told them one of Opa's war stories. Near the very end of the war,
probably already in Germany on the retreat from Russia, my father (as an
Unteroffizier) was in charge of a small group of men. They were gathered
together, somewhere, when a German troop led by some type of Offizier passed
by. This Offizier ordered my father to remain with his little group and
defend the land to the last man. Well, my children broke into laughter --
they were imagining Opa's facial expression at this command. They knew that
their Opa was no fool. And, surely, he was not a fool. After the larger
troop marched out, my father turned to his men, ordered them to bury and
dispose of any clothing and military markings they had on them, and told
them to make their way home to their families the best way they could. He,
himself, arrived in an occupied Erlangen by means of climbing over backyard
fences and hiding out in townspeoples' sheds until he reached his home. He
hid in the basement of our home for almost a month until it was safe for him
to emerge.
Have a good day,
Elsa
Hi Rolf:
I have not yet received a reply from Dobson in England. If I hear nothing
by next week, I will email them again.
Your remarks regarding your father have stirred many thoughts in me. I
believe that, at this point in my life (54 years of age), I am, in some
fashion, reconnecting with my "Germanness". The WWII experience extolled
its price on Germans all over the world in countless different ways. With
your father, I am assuming that he was declared a "criminal" by the allied
victors. Certainly, that must have been an extremely high price to pay.
Having been raised by German parents in an "ally" country, I was exposed to
both perspectives relating to WWII. The "Allied" perspective was
criminality with respect to Germans and the German perspective was
allegiance and duty. Unfortunately, the "Allied" perspective viewed
everything "German" as "Criminal" and left no room for individuality. This
perspective is still alive in some circles but is slowly dying a much-needed
death.
I have little first-hand understanding of what occurred in Germany after the
war. We came to Canada in 1953 when I was 5 and I was spared the physical
and emotional hardships of the "reconstructionist" period in Germany. My
own early childhood memories are happy ones tinged with no greater concern
than where the next piece of chocolate was coming from.
The situation in Canada was not quite as happy in early years. It was 1953,
the war years were not long past, and the Allied perspective was rampant.
Germans were hated here in this country, where the majority of the
population were of Anglo descent. My parents, who were not highly educated,
had not considered the backlash that they and their children would
experience when they made their decision to emigrate. I cannot recall many
days during my younger years when I was not called a Nazi. The
stygmatization even spread into my children's early years.
One of the results of these experiences of "hatred" was that most young
Germans, like myself, made a studied and deliberate effort to be as
"un-German" as possible. In Toronto, which is highly multi-cultural and has
many distinct cultural areas, there is no "German" area. We have
assimilated, mainly into the Anglo grouping. Unfortunately, we grew up not
really feeling that we were a definite member of either group. I was not
like my parents or their friends because I had the over-arching experience
of being educated in this country from the perspective of this country. I
was not like my classmates because I had a different cultural experience in
my home. I view my current efforts in exploring my roots as an experience
of integration of the two personae.
I am grateful that my parents and their friends told their stories from
their perspective. I feel privileged now that I am able to connect with
people like yourself in Germany and others like myself in the Western
Hemisphere at a time when "ghosts" are being laid to rest and are being
replaced by a more enlightened viewpoint. I have become enriched by this
"fleeting" von Schottenstein connection because it has opened up a wealth of
history which I never knew about my country of origin and has replaced the
"shame" I used to feel with a sense of pride and wonderment. I thank you
for making that possible.
I will pass on a little anecdote about my father that my children and I
chuckled over this past week when we were examining his war pictures. My
father was a man who utilized facial expressions more often than words to
express his thoughts. The children (now adults) knew Opa's expressions
well. I told them one of Opa's war stories. Near the very end of the war,
probably already in Germany on the retreat from Russia, my father (as an
Unteroffizier) was in charge of a small group of men. They were gathered
together, somewhere, when a German troop led by some type of Offizier passed
by. This Offizier ordered my father to remain with his little group and
defend the land to the last man. Well, my children broke into laughter --
they were imagining Opa's facial expression at this command. They knew that
their Opa was no fool. And, surely, he was not a fool. After the larger
troop marched out, my father turned to his men, ordered them to bury and
dispose of any clothing and military markings they had on them, and told
them to make their way home to their families the best way they could. He,
himself, arrived in an occupied Erlangen by means of climbing over backyard
fences and hiding out in townspeoples' sheds until he reached his home. He
hid in the basement of our home for almost a month until it was safe for him
to emerge.
Have a good day,
Elsa
My apologies to the list-members. I was not aware that this personal
message would go out to the entire list. It was not intended as a list-wide
message and I hope that you all will ignore this unintentioned blunder.
Unfortunately, I pressed the "reply" button on an earlier message not
realizing that this action would address the message to the ranken list.
Again, my apologies.
Elsa Kahler