RE: German language in America

Hallo John (assumed from your e-mail address)

Re: Assimilation (trying to stay on subject) - this is a slice of life from my notes on my g-grand, Mathias Stoltmann b. 1831 Gesmold, arrived here in 1854. Sorry, but you'll have to put up with the family characters. Let me know your thoughts!

Gary

Assimilation took place at a remarkable speed. Generally, the more money a family or individual has, the faster their assimilation takes place. Additionally, Mathias must have had a rudimentary knowledge of English to start a business in what was a predominantly English-speaking neighborhood. Of course, Mathias may have forced himself to learn the language and new habits by conscious decision.

Certainly more people stayed in the cities than had intended after they emigrated, restrained either by poverty or prosperity. For example, Mathias' previously mentioned first cousin, Mathias Martin Schriever came to St. Louis as a laborer from New Orleans the same year Mathias arived through New York City (1854) and was forced to stay working in a packinghouse in winter and at a brickyard during the summer. His wife died at 33 and his four children were put in St. Vincent's Home for Orphaned (German) Children for a time In 1868, Mathias Schriever, children and new wife moved to St. Paul, Iowa, 14 years after arriving in St. Louis. They joined a group of German Catholic immigrants and later took possession of a farm north of the city. Schriever did not farm until he had been in this country for years. Here we have an example of two cousins who, because of fortune, were both forced to stay in the city; one because of prosperity, the other because of poverty. (Ed. the Schriever family record states that, "Mathias Martin Schriever did not like 'Mr. Stoltmann' a man of some wealth; and so they corresponded little.") For whatever his reasons, Mathias made a wise decision to stay in St. Louis. St. Louis was becoming a leading arena of opportunity and would become the 4th largest city in the United States by 1900.

Hallo John (assumed from your e-mail address)

Re: Assimilation (trying to stay on subject) - this is a slice of life from my notes on my g-grand, Mathias Stoltmann b. 1831 Gesmold, arrived here in 1854. Sorry, but you'll have to put up with the family characters. Let me know your thoughts!

I'll gladly give you my thoughts, although I'm not sure they're worth all that much.

Assimilation took place at a remarkable speed. Generally, the more money a family or individual has, the faster their assimilation takes place.

True I suppose, or at least it can help. But then, the same can probably be said of faith also. They say money can't buy you love, but a firm social footing it can help with. However you might want to add a conditioning clause like "appears to have taken" in place of "took" alone. No?

Additionally, Mathias must have had a rudimentary knowledge of English to start a business in what was a predominantly English-speaking neighborhood. Of course, Mathias may have forced himself to learn the language and new habits by conscious decision.

To start a business from scratch back then suggests he had a reasonable amount of education from the German side to begin with, or else a very good set of work skills in fairly high demand in the area he located to. If he learned English, it was probably due to hard work and determination (aka personal ambition). Of course it wasn't necessarily a prerequisite to running a business back then (depending on the nature of the enterprise and its location), but it certainly would have helped.

Certainly more people stayed in the cities than had intended after they emigrated, restrained either by poverty or prosperity.

This is conjecture at best, and not adequately formulated either. Few are ever "restrained" to a given locale by prosperity alone. Most can choose their circumstances rather freely if well off, or at least position themselves to get to where they want to be. Poverty or subsistence is another matter of course, but this has been true everywhere from time in memoriam. The same could be said of a rural existence, by the way. Many wanted to beeline out of such stations in life just as fast as their feet could fly, and into the first large metropolis or hub they happened across. It worked both ways.

For example, Mathias' previously mentioned first cousin, Mathias Martin Schriever came to St. Louis as a laborer from New Orleans the same year Mathias arived through New York City (1854) and was forced to stay working in a packinghouse in winter and at a brickyard during the summer.

Again, "forced" may be somewhat speculative here if you ask me. Do you have actual proof of this? Or was it simply his fate, or even his best hand forward? Did he possess the kinds of skills that would lend themselves to alternative vocations? I myself would like to retire to an exclusive country estate all things being equal, but simply cannot afford such extravagance. But that doesn't really "force" me into any other kind of existence per se (other than that of a working stiff, if you get my drift). In reality it simply places me amongst the 99.9% of the population not in the Fortune 500 club. Big whoopee too.

His wife died at 33 and his four children were put in St. Vincent's Home for Orphaned (German) Children for a time In 1868, Mathias Schriever, children and new wife moved to St. Paul, Iowa, 14 years after arriving in St. Louis. They joined a group of German Catholic immigrants and later took possession of a farm north of the city. Schriever did not farm until he had been in this country for years.

Proving if nothing else he was industrious in the classic, time proven Teutonic way, and was no doubt attempting to get ahead and provide for his kin as best he could.

Here we have an example of two cousins who, because of fortune, were both forced to stay in the city; one because of prosperity, the other because of poverty.

You haven't necessarily sold me on this concept yet G. :o

(Ed. the Schriever family record states that, "Mathias Martin Schriever did not like 'Mr. Stoltmann' a man of some wealth; and so they corresponded little.")

Again, hopefully you have some evidence to back this, or else it should be relegated to family hearsay (which can certainly be cited, though noted as such). Perhaps you ought to spell out what this 'Schriever family record' is when chronicling this, or who is producing these claims or recollections. It's not to say it couldn't be true (it may well have been the case!), only there may be additional reasons why one cousin might choose not to rub elbows with another, and it may or may not spin around social status or issues of wealth alone. Let's be real, some folks place extraordinary value on social attainment, material aggrandizement or even ambition, while for others it matters far less or hardly at all. This is as true today as it was in the past.

For whatever his reasons, Mathias made a wise decision to stay in St. Louis.

Or, as per earlier, was he simply "forced"? :wink:

St. Louis was becoming a leading arena of opportunity and would become the 4th largest city in the United States by 1900.

Now THAT would be a good reason to stay put if you ask me. A growing and vibrant city situated in a temperate climate (although pre-arches!). I might choose to infer he was no doubt WISE enough to know a good thing when it was before him (like those who learn early on not to spit into the wind, or chase pigs in the rain), and appears to have made the most of it .

You have some good stuff there Gary. Sticking to the facts as they're known while minimizing (or footnoting) speculative conjecture always ensures an extra ring of genuineness. Your job is to sleuth for info, pound the archives and libraries (and microfilms as they may exist) for data, and interview any old-timers left before they up and leave the scene. Then let the "facts" as they're known shine on their own. Frame it right and your data will speak for itself far better than any spin you or I or even Uncle Charlie could dress it up with from our remote perches. Just remember, there's ALWAYS something new to be uncovered (in matters genealogical and otherwise).

You asked, you received. Hope it helps. Jb (on vacation and spending far too much time in front of this keyboard!) :wink:

Jb

Thanks for your comments. O.K., I'll take the challenge. Here's my sales pitch!

Suppose I should have mentioned that when I started there was no information available about my g-grand, Mathias, through the family. Actually, no one even knew his name. In my family, unless you asked, you weren't told. Given this, there is some conjecture here and that is pointed out in my preface that you obviously didn't see. We might have some semantic differences

I believe my conclusions are true using common sense and the history that I've learned.

When I stated, <more people stayed in the cities than had intended after they emigrated, restrained either by poverty or prosperity> I meant this not literally but ironically. Most came here as farmers but many also had some skills. Remembering that St Louis was an embarkation point for the West and much of the Midwest, those with skills found out that they could make a good living in a rapidly growing city. This work was certainly easier than farming and the pay was regular. Therefore, they were, "trapped." Those without money were also, "trapped" as they were forced to go to where the work was.

When Mathias & cousin arrived, there was a premium on marriageable women and if a spouse died most hustled to remarry as soon as possible. Love was a secondary consideration. If unsuccessful (as in Mathias's cousins case), the children were placed in an institution. These institutions were not readily available in rural areas. Therefore, he was, "trapped" again.

Don't answer this for a while - enjoy your vacation!

Gary

Jb

Thanks for your comments. O.K., I'll take the challenge. Here's my sales pitch!

Fire away.

Suppose I should have mentioned that when I started there was no information available about my g-grand, Mathias, through the family. Actually, no one even knew his name.

Then you have done commendable work.

In my family, unless you asked, you weren't told.

This seems to be a trait found in many German households. The truth though is that this state of affairs can be found practically everywhere, regardless of race or culture. If such information isn't forthcoming from those 'in the know', then it isn't sought by the youngins until it is too late and the elders are all long gone! And so it goes on Terra Mater... [sigh]

Given this, there is some conjecture here and that is pointed out in my preface that you obviously didn't see.

I read the preface.

We might have some semantic differences. I believe my conclusions are true using common sense and the history that I've learned.

This may be true, but I say be careful betting the barn on your conclusions here.

When I stated, <more people stayed in the cities than had intended after they emigrated, restrained either by poverty or prosperity> I meant this not literally but ironically.

Fair enough. Perhaps it got lost in translation.

Most came here as farmers but many also had some skills.

Again, I'd suggest being careful in your phrasing choices. Most farmers had (have) their own unique skills. They all ran (run) their own businesses, and - as is still the case today - they kept (keep) the rest of us city slickers fed. Farming and soil management skills are not immodest either.

Remembering that St Louis was an embarkation point for the West and much of the Midwest, those with skills found out that they could make a good living in a rapidly growing city.

Understood. But by that very definition, anyone should have found employment rather handily, regardless of the degree of work skills they possessed. Those with higher or in-demand skills simply would be able to pull in more income, which is no different than we find today, especially in areas where jobs happen to be plentiful.

This work was certainly easier than farming and the pay was regular.

Now I'm not sure what <work> you are referring to here. If you mean working in a packinghouse during the winter and at a brickyard during the summer, well I'm not sure than was necessarily easier (though farming is not for the meek, that's a given). The pay being more regular was probably true though (as a straight wage earner).

Therefore, they were, "trapped." Those without money were also, "trapped" as they were forced to go to where the work was.

Well I suppose my biggest quibble would be with the use of some of the buzzwords you have chosen to use. 'Trapped', 'forced', 'restrained' are all rather forceful words, leaving little room for maneuvering. Tour de force words, if you will. As I see it, to be "trapped" (literally -or- figuratively) in a city work environ (or anywhere for that matter), you would have to show evidence somewhere that it was not born of free will, or that Mathias begrudged his lot in being there. Do you know this to be a fact? Is there a passed-down letter perhaps that reflects such sentiments? On the other hand, are you sure he wasn't content to have found quick and gainful employment in America, especially having little command of the extant language, and with but minimal experience with the new customs about him? Though you may be right, you may also be wrong in your conclusions you are drawing here.

When Mathias & cousin arrived, there was a premium on marriageable women and if a spouse died most hustled to remarry as soon as possible. Love was a secondary consideration.

Sad but true more often than not (except in the movies). :slight_smile:

If unsuccessful (as in Mathias's cousins case), the children were placed in an institution.

"Unsuccessful". That word not only presumes a lot, it suggests a lot. Also begs the obvious question: What is success? The amount of money someone manages to squirrel away? Or maybe the power or influence we cast? Or perhaps it is no more than simple happiness? Or knowledge? Enlightenment? Is success the art of serving yourself, or country, or others? Is it the CEO of a Fortune 500 company implementing an outsourcing policy while handing out pink slips from a penthouse suite, or the guy standing in the cold at the supermarket ringing the bell for Salvation Army over the holidays? Seems to me it always comes down to what side of the fence you happen to be standing on.

In your ancestor's case, if he recently lost his wife, had four young mouths to feed, and did not have immediate family who could come to his assistance, then his children might be placed (wisely) in temporary foster care, as many Christian organizations of the day often provide. So many unknown factors though... Was he barely making ends meet as it was? Was he unemployed, or in and out of employment? Did he have personal problems (e.g. drinking or drugs), or a unruly temper that interfered with his duties? Was his health less than perfect? On and on it goes. Or could it have been simply that having to work from sunrise to sunset, he had no one to look after his young children adequately (this might point to a lack of family members in his immediate area to pitch in). The fact that when he remarried his children joined him again suggests the foster care may have been a temporary 'fix' or situation. You may be putting too much stock in his supposedly "unsuccessful" state.

These institutions were not readily available in rural areas. Therefore, he was, "trapped" again.

Well if he was trapped, then perhaps it was self imprisonment. Only you and I don't know this to be a fact. I say again, if you could produce some evidence of his unhappiness at being a day laborer, or something that indicates he dreamt of being a farmer from the time he hit American shores but it took 14 long years to get there, I would say you may be onto something. If not, it remains mere supposition, and not fact. Makes for a nice story line, but it may not be true or valid. And isn't that what we strive for in chronicling our past, at least to get as close to the "truth" (admittedly a slippery concept at best) as we can? Even with our best efforts, we can only begin to touch the surface of our ancestor's lives. We will never have a suitable crystal ball to see things in the kind of depth we might otherwise wish. If something remains unknown or unclear, I say SO BE IT. Better to leave a blank or two or three than to fill such voids with roses.

I always ask myself HOW DO I KNOW THIS? [emphasis on KNOW]. Thus my belief in letting the data collected tell as much of the story as possible. Everything else should be cited as ^So-and-so states/recalls.., or ^My take/hunch is... or ^This may suggest ... etc, etc. The devil, as always, remains in the details.

Don't answer this for a while - enjoy your vacation!

LOL. It's only due to my vacation time that I can lob out so many missiles STOP! YOU'RE KILLING US! PLEASE RELENT!

Gary, I do admire your all that you've accomplished to date. The work you are doing to document your ancestors' lives speak volumes. I think you will find that in most families, very few will ever take the time to walk down these inspiring, but often trying, paths. Salute!

Jb

Jb

Two different subjects here. Genealogy is the discovery of the bones while the histories are 'hanging the meat.' While I appreciate your exactness to genealogy, when it comes down to it, the familial history involved is mostly an art. It is to be interpreted in a perspective of time. If I were to list every historical exception or to only list that information that I can document, there would be no room for common sense and would be a very short story.

Gary.