Was this variation confined to one part of Germany or one class of Germans?
I ask because I have heard that one branch of my mother's family called
another branch "Plattdeutsche" and they never spoke again. But I don't know
which side made the charge, nor who were the accused! One side was Bremen
and Hannover Evangelical Lutheran ----- and the other side was from the
Eifel in Rhineland-Pfalz and Roman Catholic. Can anyone help solve the
puzzle: who were the arrogant name-callers?
Maureen
I never heard of such sort of feeling. But as we say in plattdeutsch: Wat
den einen sin Uhl is den anneren sin Nachtigal (What is the owl for the
first one is the nightingale for the other).
Helmut (of muenster, westphalia)
Was this variation confined to one part of Germany or one class of
Germans?
I ask because I have heard that one branch of my mother's family called
another branch "Plattdeutsche" and they never spoke again. But I don't
know
Maureen schrieb:
Was this variation confined to one part of Germany or one class of Germans?
There were everywhere in the German spoken areas different dialect speeches as
the Bavarian in Bavaria, the K�lsch in Cologne and so on. As far as I know the
"Plattdeutsche" or "Niederdeutsche" was the name for the northern dialects.
That had nothing to do with classes, but comes therefrom that the land climbs up
from North to South. Centre of the Plattdeutsch may fall together with the region
of the "Niederdeutsche Tiefebene". But you can also combine the other dialects
with the suffix "Platt" as for example the "K�lsch Platt" and it is a right
description. Without a regional connection as "K�lsch", the spoken "Platt", what
is ment, is probably the "Plattdeutsch" spoken in the northern parts. The upper
classes were later on were distinguishable by speaking "Hochdeutsch" in contrary
to the "Platt", but that was a landwide developement, not only a concern of the
"Plattdeutsch" in the North.
I ask because I have heard that one branch of my mother's family called
another branch "Plattdeutsche" and they never spoke again. But I don't know
which side made the charge, nor who were the accused! One side was Bremen
and Hannover Evangelical Lutheran ----- and the other side was from the
Eifel in Rhineland-Pfalz and Roman Catholic. Can anyone help solve the
puzzle: who were the arrogant name-callers? Maureen
By that you see, your "Plattdeutsche" were probably those of Bremen. But there
must be not necessarily a deminuishing connotation in it. If it was that way, it
was a special family affair, which had no corresponding feeling for example
between the people from the northern to those of southern part et vice versa.
On a joky level today those from the south call their northern partners
"Fischk�ppe", the other way round they say in that case "Kn�delfresser", but
that�s all beyond insulting intentions and just for teasing. But you know, there
are always some ....
Best wishes Hans Peter Albers
Thank you. Yes, all my life I have thought it was a nasty term, because it
created such ill-feeling in the family. This incident occurred nearly 100
years ago.
Maureen
Maureen schrieb:
Thank you so kindly, Klaus, for a lovely explanation!
The event happened nearly 100 years ago. My memory
of the story is about 50 years old. So I was not sure.
The Hannover-Bremen folks (my grandfather) had a new automobile
and they were very proud to show it off. The Eifel folks (his
sister-in-law)
were not so excited as to come running out of their house immediately
to see the new automobile. Perhaps they were in the middle of dinner.
They thought it could wait.
Anyway, Grandfather's feelings were hurt. The others may have thought
Grandfather was acting too childish or too boastful or too self-centered,
perhaps.
Someone called the other "Plattdeutsche" in anger, definitely meaning
it to be a very demeaning term. And they never spoke again.
My guess is that neither family actually spoke Plattdeutsche and that the
word was simply used to mean that one or the other had the "manners of a
peasant."
Does that make any sense to you?
Who was more likely to use that term as an "epithet?" Do you have an
opinion
on that?
Thank you again for your kind help and for so much English-writing!
Maureen
Dear Klaus,
As I try to read microfilms for my husband's ancestors from Northern
Germany (Neuenkirchen bei Vorden, Lage etc.), I can only say that I wish
my German was as good as your English. You are to be given great credit
for trying to handle a second language (and English is not easy). So
---Congratulations on your English? Sophie Gottemoller
P.S. The Gottemollers were Plattdeutsch.
Vahlbruch wrote:
Klaus,
Thank you for even attempting to write in English; I can do nothing in
German, unfortunately.
I understood everything you wrote.
Your response was addressed to someone else, but I also read it. My
mother (Austrian) used to explain that there was a difference between high
and low German, but I never understood the significance. Thank you for
explaining it.
Susan
Sophie,
I too am researching in Neuenkirchen, Prussia. But since there are 15
Neuenkirchens in Germany, I'm not quite sure I have the right one. Could
ours be the same one?
Susan
I doubt if anyone called someone by that name. One speaks platt but
isn't platt. What might have gone on here is the typical high-brow vs
country bumpkin scenario. Hill billy vs city folk etc.
There was a definate negative connection to not being able to speak
high German (hochdeutsch). It could be used to infer a lack of
education and lower class. Many parents even in more modern times
would not permit their children to speak platt in the house as they
felt this would hold them back in life. In my wife's family that was
the case and she can't speak platt. It'd the street lingo of our
times and we all know we're supposed to speak proper English and not
slang.
Fred
4788 Corian Court
Naples, FL 34114
239-775-7838; 239-269-4781 (cell)
FredRump@earthlink.net
Hi everyone interested in Plattdeutsch,
I only now found the time to read all your questions and explanations.
Perhaps I can add another little bit to the puzzle.
I grew up on a small farm about 20 miles from Osnabr�ck, an area today being
part of Lower saxony, but only a few miles away from westphalia.
Grand-parents and parents (though my mom is from a bigger town and only was
confronted with low German after their marriage after WWII) spoke both High
German and platt, but as was pointed out before, didn't want us children to
really speak it, because they were told that we'd do better in school not
being mixed up between two languages. I wish they had encouraged me more to
speak it, after having been able to learn English I am sure this wouldn't
have bothered me at all. Anyways, I can only speak a few words, but am
pretty fluent in understanding it.
But what I wanted to point out, that there are big differences between the
platt that is being spoken in Schleswig Holstein, Frisia, Hanburg, Bremen or
even Pommern. And I even know that there are differences from one little
village to another, although being only a mile apart. Years ago I saw a show
on TV where someone was able to tell where people came from just by hearing
such differences, and to me it was all platt. Here is an example:
The word ladder (Leiter in high German) was called LEDDER with my parents
and the neighbouring village called it BIAERM, ink was either called ENK OR
BLACK or even only DINTE (Tinte in High German), a girl was called WICHT or
L�T etc. Also the prnounciation has loads of differences between villages
and areas even if they do use the same words.In addition there are no rules
for writing platt, it is just written as spoken.
I found an article in German about the Platt in the area specified by DR
Gisbert Keseling . If anyone is interested I could send a copy (5-6 pages,
but too much to copy and publish on the list)
In this case and if anyone needs a German translation of this mail, please
write to me privately and don't answer to the list.
Erika
To Erika and list members,
This conversation and history lesson about Plattdeutsch is so interesting to
many of us who grew up with it spoken in our homes.
My Ober�sterreich families still speak a form of Platt of the Austrian
dialect in their rural villages in Southeast Missouri that has not changed
since immigration in 1853. And my husband's family from the Osnabr�ck
region (Venne and Engter villages) that settled in Washington County,
Illinois (Venedy and Okawville) still speak a Platt dialect that delighted
our visitors from Venne two years ago. They could completely understand
each other even after 150 years!
That is what amazes me about these dialects. In these somewhat isolated
villages in America, the immigrant families have been able to (often
stubbornly) retain their language...and thereby their culture and traditions
in ways that continually surprise, and delight, me.
My Best Wishes,
Carolyn Bening in Missouri
Then don't let it die! Preserve it! Write it down, record it, save it for
future scholars! Make it your life's work!
Maureen
Susan,
My husband's ancestors came from Neuenkirchen bei Vorden, Lage, Amt
Malgarten, Rieste, Bransche or in this general area. They came to the
US in 1836 and moved to Ohio, where many descendents still live today.
One of our problems is that the first Gortemoller we know of was born
Becker. The family was Roman Catholic, at least they were so in the
records I was sent by a Kind Gentleman. His wife was a Tangeman and her
family lived in Neuenkirchn itself and the microfilmed records for that
family are great. If you need the LDS numbers for those, I will gladly
send them to you. What is the surname you are searching?
Sophie
Susan Westhoff wrote:
In some parts of the country plattdeutsch has returned into schools, it is
taught like a foreign language, but this is not true of the whole country.
In German villages and towns you can find clubs which try to preserve it,
there is a TV show occationally and there are theatre plays on TV
sometimes, but this does not preserve the many differences of a local
tongues which only a living language can do.
Erika