Well, I wonder if I am totally onto the wrong path here, with Saxony. What do you think?
In a memorial booklet when Augusta Schwertfeger Groppe died, it lists her birthplace as:
Siebershausen Germany (easy to read, no ambiguity in the writing).
At some point in my searching, I was told it was Sievershausen. I didn't know about (well, I don't Think I did!)" "SieberTshausen" in Hessen, but also a "Sievershausen" near Kassel." (thank you Lothar! for that).
In every census Augusta's birthplace is listed as either Hanover, Hannover, or Germany, never Saxony.
Should I not even be looking in Saxony?? I don't know how I got onto it now, can't retrace my steps at the moment, but think it must be because someone told me that Sievershausen was In Saxony. So it seems like I should be looking at either Siebertshausen in Hesse for sure? and what about the one near Kassel, is that near Hanover?
Hello Nancy,
I'm coming in here without checking anything in books or maps or such, just the impression. I
get by reading what has been said so far.
In one of your earlier mails you wrote if possibly the Schwertfeger girl was born out of
wedlock, and I certainly think so, much more likely than the mother having the maiden name
Schwertfeger and marrying a Schwertfeger, although this would of course not be totally
impossible.
Unmarried mothers were very much accepted at times. What time do we talk about?
I know that in my own family often one of the daughters was kept at home to help the parents,
and as my own grandmother told me, if this woman had even several babies (often by the
same man) it was accepted as a matter of fact. These unlucky couples were not allowed to
marry, and there was another reason, often they were not allowed to leave their employment
on one the the large estates owned by the then gentry. This long after serfdom had been
officially abolished. If the man was from one village and the girl from another village owned by
a different Baron, marriage was difficult unless the gentleman owner agreed.
This was very much the case in the county of Vorpommern, Hinterpommern, and Mecklenburg.
Augusta's daughter was born in about 1865, also in "Hanover / Hannover" on the censuses, or Germany; so that's the timeframe and place. Does that sound like it would fit in with what you said about being unable to marry?
Also, just to show my confusion even more, is Hesse a part of Saxony?
This is very interesting. I was always wondering about my great
grandparents. They emigrated from Saxony in 1881. Just before they
emigrated they were married. The marriage certificate says Henrich August
Goldammer, resident and bricklayer in Z...sewitz (illegible)and Ernestine
Emilie, nee Herfurth, formerly a hired maid in Zschagewitz (May 15, 1881).
The thing is they already had a son who was born in 1875. Do you think this
was why they were not married until they emigrated?
This is very interesting. I was always wondering about my great
grandparents. They emigrated from Saxony in 1881. Just before they
emigrated they were married. The marriage certificate says Henrich August
Goldammer, resident and bricklayer in Z...sewitz (illegible)and Ernestine
Emilie, nee Herfurth, formerly a hired maid in Zschagewitz (May 15, 1881).
The thing is they already had a son who was born in 1875. Do you think this
was why they were not married until they emigrated?
What are your sources for the marriage information and birth of a son in 1875?
i searched Shteltseeker for town name similar to Zschagewitz and that name is not found. These similar names are found:
Zschechwitz populated place 50�58' N 12�27' E184.2 kilometers SSW of Berlin 52�31' N 13�24' E
Zscheckwitz populated place 50�57' N 13�46'E 175.9 kilometers S of Berlin 52�31' N 13�24' E.
Searching fro town containing sewitz returns Zschiesewitz:
Zschiesewitz populated place 51�45' N 12�25' 108.4 kilometers SW of Berlin 52�31' N 13�24' E
the FHLC does not have anything for Zschagewitz. Search the FHLC for the above places.
I have a copy of the marriage certificate and had it translated. It was
either Christine from this list group or a friend here who lived in Germany
a long time that did the translation. I have the birth date from his (the
child's) family in particular his son. It also matches census data. Also I
have the ship records that have August (he went by August) and Ernestine and
their son Richard at the correct age.
Henrich was originally from Lastau and Ernestine from Hermsdorf near
Geringswalde. Hermsdorf is where the certificate is from. Near these two
places I found a place spelled Zschaagwitz. I kind of figured this was the
place noted in the certificate. They are all within 10 miles of each other.
The certificate was in that old German gothic script and hand written so the
translating was a bit difficult.
This is very interesting. I was always wondering about my great
grandparents. They emigrated from Saxony in 1881. Just before they
emigrated they were married. The marriage certificate says Henrich August
Goldammer, resident and bricklayer in Z...sewitz (illegible)and Ernestine
Emilie, nee Herfurth, formerly a hired maid in Zschagewitz (May 15, 1881).
The thing is they already had a son who was born in 1875. Do you think this
was why they were not married until they emigrated?
What are your sources for the marriage information and birth of a son
in 1875?
i searched Shteltseeker for town name similar to Zschagewitz and that
name is not found. These similar names are found:
Zschechwitz populated place 50�58' N 12�27' E184.2 kilometers SSW of
Berlin 52�31' N 13�24' E
Zscheckwitz populated place 50�57' N 13�46'E 175.9 kilometers S of
Berlin 52�31' N 13�24' E.
Searching fro town containing sewitz returns Zschiesewitz:
Zschiesewitz populated place 51�45' N 12�25' 108.4 kilometers SW of
Berlin 52�31' N 13�24' E
the FHLC does not have anything for Zschagewitz. Search the FHLC for the
above places.
Augusta's daughter was born in about 1865, also in "Hanover /
Hannover" on the censuses, or Germany; so that's the timeframe and
place. Does that sound like it would fit in with what you said about
being unable to marry?
With these large agricultural estates being in both parts of Pommern (Hinter and Vor), and also
Mecklenburg, there may have been other reason for an illegitimate birth in the area of
Hannover.
Perhaps the child was even fathered by someone else than the man who became the husband
later, and then legalized the child as his own.
Also, just to show my confusion even more, is Hesse a part of Saxony?
No, Hessen is nowadays an independent Federal State, and did never belong to Lower Saxony.
In days gone by there were many small dukedoms and principalities, like Hannover-
Braunschweig, Hessen-Nassau and so on, sorry my knowledge there is minimal only.
This is very interesting. I was always wondering about my great
grandparents. They emigrated from Saxony in 1881. Just before they
emigrated they were married. The marriage certificate says Henrich
August Goldammer, resident and bricklayer in Z...sewitz (illegible)and
Ernestine Emilie, nee Herfurth, formerly a hired maid in Zschagewitz
(May 15, 1881).
As you say Saxony this could well be the village of Zschachwitz which was situated in Saxony
on the banks of the river Elbe.
It is now the district of Grosszschachwitz in the city of Dresden because as towns and cities
grow, they engulf villages on their periphery, don't they?
The thing is they already had a son who was born in
1875. Do you think this was why they were not married until they
emigrated?
With it being a village the circumstances of bondage to a landowner may also apply.
I have a copy of the marriage certificate. I have the birth
date from his (the child's) family in particular his son. It also
matches census data. Also I have the ship records that have August
(he went by August) and Ernestine and their son Richard at the correct
age.
Henrich was originally from Lastau and Ernestine from Hermsdorf near
Geringswalde. Hermsdorf is where the certificate is from.
Hermsdorf probably being the largest at the time therefore cogniozant for official entries in the
registry, I assume.
Near these
two places I found a place spelled Zschaagwitz.
I am pretty sure it this would be the place name Zschachwitz as mentioned before.
this was the place noted in the certificate. They are all within 10
miles of each other. The certificate was in that old German gothic
script and hand written so the translating was a bit difficult.
