Das wird auf dieser Seite zumindest suggeriert:
http://cm.coe.int/reports/cmdocs/1999/99cm173add.html
Was soll man weiterhin unter "Lithuanian Prussians" verstehen?
Sind das die Nachfahren von memell�ndischen Ostpreu�en?
Wei� jemand etwas �ber die hier erw�hnte Pru�en-Ausstellung
auf der s�chsischen Burg Kriebstein in diesem Monat?
http://www.jf-archiv.de/archiv01/161yy45.htm
MfG
Lutz Szemkus
Lutz. Hopefully you will be able to understand this.
My German is not good so I will do it in English.
About three years ago, while "surfing the net", I ran
across an article describing what you have given in
the URL of cm.coe.int/reports/cmdoscs/1999/99.
If my memory is not correct, I am sure someone out
there will educate me!
This article I was referring to was that a group of
educators, linguists and interested citizens were trying
to gather information of the "old Prussian" language,
life style, village photographs, city photographs and
most everything that was "old Prussia." Also, I believe
that this group/organization was headquartered in
Berlin at the University of Berlin and other professors
in Universities in Northern Poland. But, I do not remember
that the area of Kalingingrad and Lithuania being included
in this project although I may be wrong.
I had offered this group copies of postcards of scenes
in and around Skaisgirren but never received a reply from
them.
I would be interested in hearing from you.
Regards,
Robert Lipprandt
Researching: Kletellen, Kreis Niederung, Ost Preussen
<>Obschernings, Schneidereit.
Wannaglauken, Kreis Niederung, Ost Preussen
<>Schneidereit, Ohlendorf, Rudau
Tilsit, Kreis Tilsit, Ost Preussen <> Braun
Die "Lithuanian Prussians" sind wohl Ostpreussen mit litauischer
Muttersprache, besonders vor 1914.
rloss@bellsouth.net schrieb:
Lutz. Hopefully you will be able to understand this.
My German is not good so I will do it in English.About three years ago, while "surfing the net", I ran
across an article describing what you have given in
the URL of cm.coe.int/reports/cmdoscs/1999/99.
No problem with English here.
I think that the article contains a number of absurdities and
inconsistencies, but if the objective of this enterprise is to
further the cause of a fourth
Baltic republic or a union of the K�nigsberg/Kaliningrad area
with Lithuania, that would be fine with me.
Old Prussians (whose number is estimated at 140 000 in the
14th century) must have been assimilated into the
East-Prussian mainstream a long time ago. Language often is a
good indicator of that process: the last speaker of Old
Prussian is said to have lived round 1700.
Now, round 1700 the pastor Pr�torius wrote his "Preussische
Schaub�hne" in which he described the customs, traditions etc
of the people around him. He thought that they were the
descendants of Old Prussians, in reality they were descendants
of Samogitian/Lithuanian immigrants. Theirs, of course, is a
completely different story. They were the first settlers of
the wilderness -hence the Lithuanian claims to the
Kaliningrad area by their lobby ( this is what the quote "In
Lithuania there are still people identifying themselves as
Prussians" seems to suggest) . Another recent example is the
publication of the Encyclopeaedia of Lithuania Minor. As the
original and only settlers for about three centuries they were
able to maintain a Lithuanian peasant/village culture, the one
that Pr�torius and others like Donelaitis describe. In their
ways they were supported by the Prussian kings whose most
loyal subjects they became.
They were given pastors that spoke their language. One of
them, Bretke, translated the Bible into Lithuanian. His work
alone accounts for one third of the corpus of Old Lithuanian
that we have today. The same support the Lithuanians received
would have been given to Prussians, had their ethnicity and
culture made it into the times after East Prussia became
secularized in 1525.
So all we have today about Old Prussian culture is the biased
chronicles of the Teutonic Knights, place names, surnames (for
a while I thought mine was one, in fact, it is Lithuanian), a
few glossaries (of the oldest language in Europe (if you leave
out Basque), a few ornaments, the names of their heroes :
Herkus Monte, Skomand ...
The rest is nostalgia.
Regards
Lutz Szemkus
Ha! I found it Lutz!
Use the search engine www.google.com and enter
the title "Prussian Reconstruction", the first entry.
This is the article that I remember from a few years
ago. But I have to admit, because I am not a linguist,
I have no idea what some of the things mentioned are
about.
Google also indicates that there are 4,260 other pages
with links to this subject so there may be more information
or differing views.
I keep wondering, if there are so many interested in the
Prussian Reconstruction, would not the Russians and
Poles see an advantage in this and open the doors to
research and tourism? Or, do I not know the facts of the
situation and would my idea be too simple?
Regards,
Robert Lipprandt
The Russians never impressed me as being interested in this type of
topic. They only like the Russian identity.
Any move to alter the national status of the Kaliningrad enclave is
both unrealistic and irresponsible. The borders of 1945 are the only
basis upon which Europe can move on. Old wounds are not healed by
new ones.
John (Rohde)
Unless I misread, I think this whole article is for the
preservation of the language-culture-lifestyle of what
was Prussia. Realistically, I do not believe anyone
believes that Prussia will rise as it was. But then,
the wall also fell when people said it would not.
Regards,
Robert Lipprandt
I am sorry, Robert Lipprandt, but I think you misunderstood something.
Prussia as a country got its name from the part of it that we today know as
east and west prussia, i.e. the old provinces. So east and west prussia got
their name Prussia at that time when the clerical state was converted into a
"secular" (?) state with the last Hochmeister becoming the first Duke. But the
name was taken from the original inhabitants, the Prussians (Pruthenians),
who were not Germans, not even Germanic people, not Slavic people, but Baltic
people.
So the question of the re-establishment of the Prussian state of the 20th
century is not the point here.
For me the question here is, if there are any East Prussians who still today
know of their Prussian (Pruthenian!) descendence or even live some culture
of their ancestors of even feel as German Prussians. - In this connection it
is important to point out that the clishee is, that the Germans (at the Orders
time) eradicated all the Prussians. This fits into the today's programme of
the angry Germans who conquered the east of Europe ... On the other hand
Lithuania claims - again like in about 1920 - to be the brothers of the old
Prussian inhabitants, but likes to forget that the Lithuanian (and
Polish-Lithuanian) dukes at the Orders time came again and again into the eastern parts of
East Prussia to rob and destroy. The did not only kill German settlers but
Prussians as well, resp. led them into slavery. So I think the Prussian culture
went down because of the preference of German by all powers in the land, the
better developed techniques (of warfare, of agriculture, of
building/engineering ...), the suppression of the Prussian inhabitants esp. after their big
riot, the loss of people because of the attacks and invasions of Polish,
Tartarian (end of 17th cent. 200 villages erased), Russian, and Lithuanian groups,
and last but not least the cholera and dramatic pest epidemies.
But there is a lot of Prussian culture that the East Prussians still 1940
lived. The kind how they cooked, their preferred taste and food, all those
little words they use, like Lorbass, Pomuchel, Lischke, Kaddig, Palwe ... and
traditions like the easter traditions. Alas the Prussians don't seem to have
been great musicians, otherwise we would have more songs, but the typical melody
is a bit beautifully mournful. - But on the whole all cultures, incl. the
Prussian had become a quite unique mixture of a new German one, the East
Prussian culture. The Salzburger, the Huguenottes, the Masovians ... they all
brought pieces into the pot of culture. But nevertheless there were evolutionary
differences between the northwestern and the eastern parts of East Prussia -
which are also represented by the borders of the Regierungsbezirke
(Westpreussen/K�nigsberg, Allenstein and Gumbinnen [=Preussisch-Lit(h)auen].
BTW: The old Prussians have had virtually no chance between the Masovians
(later the Poles who came from the south) and their helpers, the Germans and
Lithuanians. Like the Balts always were driven back from the spreading Slaves
and Germanic people. Balts had been living even in the region of Moscow, which
was proven by landscape names [Flurnamen], like names of forests and rivers.
There is also a old Prussian family name within my family, but the knowledge
about it is not there. The conscience of "being Prussian (Pruthenian)" was
of course not wanted from the gouvernement in Prussia, resp. Germany. And why
? It was a goal to eliminate the rests of all the differences between the
cultures. In some families however, esp. in the Samland, the knowledge of old
Prussian descendence will surely have been cherished.
I think it is a disgrace that a people who had been living from the
beginning of human time in the region between the Vistula and the Memel, who had been
merged into some kind of multicultural culture (with the predominant German
one) were driven out of their original home and dispersed all over the world.
[Please excuse my rudimentary English.]
Thomas Salein
Thank you Thomas. Your information is appreciated
as I am still learning the "history" of my mothers
people.
Regards,
Robert Lipprandt
There's a standard work in English that puts the struggle of
the Prussians into a larger context:
The Northern Crusades, by Eric Christiansen, Penguin, 15
Dollars in the US.
rloss@bellsouth.net schrieb:
Thank you Thomas. Your information is appreciated
as I am still learning the "history" of my mothers
people.Regards,
Robert Lipprandt
I've read in two sources now that the Prussians were superior
to the Knights in open battle, probably due to their horse
culture, and river warfare. They almost ousted them in their
big rising, but finally were defeated when fresh crusaders
were brought in from Germany.
Lutz Szemkus
Danke Lutz!
Regards,
Robert
Hallo Lutz,
you just wrote:
There's a standard work in English that puts the struggle of
the Prussians into a larger context:
The Northern Crusades, by Eric Christiansen, Penguin, 15
Dollars in the US.
[...]
I've read in two sources now that the Prussians were superior
to the Knights in open battle, probably due to their horse
culture, and river warfare. They almost ousted them in their
big rising, but finally were defeated when fresh crusaders
were brought in from Germany.
Thank you for the hint concerning that book.
... but I am convinced that this last statement is not true. The Prussians
with their light armourment were definitely weaker on an open battle field
than the knights of the Order. The knights at that time were something like
human tanks. This was valuable until armour-breaking weapons like the arbalest
[Armbrust] were invented, i.e. as far as I remember 15th century. A group of
knights on their heavy - and as well armoured - horses which was in movement
was hardly to stop. They rode through the enemy, turned and did that again.
(Look at the small numbers of German knights and the numerical superiority of
the enemies.)
So, here we can see the reason why the Prussian land was first invaded by
winter time: all swamps and rivers were frozen to carry the heavy armoured
Germans.
But on a swampy ground or in a forest those Prussian warriors must have been
superior to the Germans. But to prevent dangers for that reason there were
always the German 'soldiers' by foot. - Later the knights liked to call for
such helping troops by foot from their formerly and beaten enemies, like the
Prussians in East Prussia, resp. Curian, Latvian, and Estonian people in Kur-
and Livland. Those troops were always the weakest point. (They left the
knights in that battle on the Peipus lake against this Nowgorodian duke.)
The Prussians nearly ousted the knights, as you wrote. (At about 1290 ?)
True, but that may have been, because the rebellion broke out when treaties had
already been made between the Order an the Prussian leaders. This rebellion
must have come surprisingly for the knights who defended themselves in their
boroughs and castles. To attack such castles was a warfare technique that the
Prussians must have been improved decisively by the knowledge of the Germans
who once came into the land but found no stone castles, but such made of wood
and earth biult on selected good natural places. The Germans knew how to
mine, dig and burn such a castle and built the brick-made castles. But one
should not forget: the building of such a castle lasted years. So the first
'castles' were nothing more than fixed houses, esp. in the 'wilderness', i.e. the
eastern and southeastern parts of East Prussia.
And it is also true, that the Prussians were divided. Not less of them were
true to the Germans, while the majority followed Henrik Monte and their
leaders. (E.g. I once read a story about a Prussians who fiercly fought for the
Order in sieged castle.) After that rebellion the land Natangen was nearly
empty of people, the parties cannot have been always fair with each other, taking
hostages and doing cruelties. Henrik Monte later was found by betrayel and
immediately hanged where he had been found. I also have read that Prussians
after their final defeat went to Lithuania.
Nevertheless their horses must have been excellent, those grey tough and
relatively small Schweiken. So the Order liked those horses for tasks other than
carrying armoured knights, e.g. their courier service over the Kurische
Nehrung to Riga. The word Ross for such a heavy German horse was taken up into
the Prussian language. (Interesting how many different words are used for
things and beings that are most important, like forests, horses, women and girls,
even in languages that are very close to each other, different words.)
But this is now too far from the point with Prussian warriors beeing
superior to the knights ...
Lunch break is over.
Thomas Salein
Hallo Thomas
Vielleicht interessiert Dich auch die zweite Quelle zur
angeblichen �berlegenheit der Pru�en:
Marian Biskup/Gerard Labuda: Die Geschichte des Deutschen
Ordens in Preu�en
fibre Verlag, 2000
Da steht unter anderem, da� die Pru�en nach 1260 ihre
Kampftechnik und Ausr�stung verbesserten (Brustpanzer mit
eisernen Platten, Sturmt�rme, Rammb�cke bei Belagerungen etc)
Was die Kreuzritter rettete, war die Taktik der verbrannten
Erde.
Biskup/Labuda - es sind polnische Historiker - :
"Die Deutschordensritter wiederum begannen, den vollst�ndigen
Untergang vor Augen, ihrerseits gegen�ber den Pru�en die
Taktik der verbrannten Erde, indem sie die Saaten
niederbrannten, D�rfer zerst�rten, aber auch die Bev�lkerung
ausrotteten oder selbst zur Flucht �ber die Landesgrenzen
zwangen. Dieses Schicksal erlitt im Jahre 1273 Pogesanien, wo
die Ordensritter alle Einwohner versklavten oder erschlugen,
"mit Ausnahme einiger weniger, die mit dem Gesinde nach
Litauen entkamen". Zwischen 1274 und 1283 zerst�rten die
Ordensritter einen Burgbezirk nach dem anderen, indem sie die
Wohnsitze dem Erdboden gleichmachten, Frauen und Kinder in due
Sklaverei f�hrten und alle M�nner ermordeten, die das Land
verteidigten. Die bessere Organisation und Kriegsstrategie
erlangte die Oberhand gegen�ber dem Volksaufstand."
Das mu�te im Grunde die einzig erfolgbringende "Taktik" sein,
wenn man die unglaublich niedrige Zahl �ber die Kopfst�rke der
Ritter sieht:
"... betrug die Gesamtzahl der Ritter in dieser Zeit 100 bis
200 Ordensritter, die auf verschiedene Burgen verteilt waren."
Lutz Szemkus
salein@gmx.de schrieb:
Hallo Lutz,
sicherlich sollte man auch ruhig einmal eine polnische Quelle dazu lesen.
Aber ich bin da sehr vorsichtig. Wenn ich allein den Begriff der "verbrannten
Erde" lese ... Es ist n�mlich genauso Tatsache, da� auch die Pru�en ebenso wie
z.B. die immer wieder einfallenden Litauer genau dasselbe taten. Dazu gibt
es ebenso Berichte, wahrscheinlich sogar mehr, denn die Ordensleute haben
schlie�lich die Geschichte aufgeschrieben, w�hrend die Pru�en dies nicht konnten.
Mir ist einfach nicht nach polnischer Geschichte. Die haben auch schon
geschrieben, da� die Pru�en nichts weiter als ein polnischer Stamm seien, genauso
wie die Masuren/Masovier. Irgendwie m�ssen sie sich ja rechtfertigen.
Auch f�llt mir noch auf, da� hier 100-200 Ordensritter den gesamten
aufst�ndischen Pru�en entgegengestellt werden. Das ist nat�rlich ein Vergleich von
�pfeln und Birnen, denn den Ordensrittern standen eine gr��ere Zahl an
Graum�ntlern und noch mehr einfache S�ldner bei. Die Graum�ntler waren keine
Ordensbr�der und in der Hierarchie eine Stufe unter ihnen. Ich meine, man m��te den
Ordensbr�dern hinsichtlich ihrer Ausstattung und Ausbildung eher die
pru�ischen Adeligen gegen�berstellen. Waren das mehr als 100-200 ?
Thomas Salein
Oh, what a nonsense. ... And what borders in 1945 ? January, February, ...
Dezember ? And no knowledge about "corrections" of the new Polish-russian
border after 1945.
Ein Unrechtszustand darf nicht ewig bestehen bleiben!
Thomas Salein
grbr25235@cableinet.co.uk schrieb:
Hans Delbrück made the point that the Old Prussians were not defeated
by battles but because of their control of the waterways and their
fortified places ( Geschichte des Kriegswesens - English edition,
History of the Art of War, volume III p. 377-383. ISBN 0-8032-6585-9)
Man for man the brother knights must have been far better equipped
than their enemies but their numbers were very few and they depended
upon crusading expeditions from Germany and elsewhere to achieve
temporary superiority which could be "banked" as garrisoned castles.
The Prussian revolt of Henrik Monte reads very much like the Pontiac
conspiracy of the American frontier; of course, Old Prussian society
was far less alien in all but its religious aspects.
John (Rohde)
Thomas,
I think you know that I mean the internationally
recognised borders that broadly date from the German defeat of 1945.
Rectifications by consent are far different than one-sided plans to
acquire what would be disputed territory: Poles and Lithuanians of a
nostalgic dipsposition have been venting their dreams "redeeming" the
territory. I have made the same point on those lists as on this.
Besides having something to say about who should have the enclave,
they would inevitably regard its acquisition by Germany as a threat to
themselves. Germany is rich and powerful, set to lead Europe; making
another Yugoslavia of East-Central Europe is beneath her destiny.
If we are to keep carping and brawling until everyone is satisfied
that every historical grievance, real or imagined has been amended we
shall all be paying rent to what remains of Neanderthal man.
As an Anglo-Irish-Prusso-Kashubo-Pole I am as keen on a fight as
anyone but a duel fought with hand grenades in a broom closet - which
is what the next Great War would be - is not my idea of a good scrap.
If you would like to go and live in Kaliningrad, I am sure that it
could be arranged; if you just want to see the lines moved on a map, I
would recommend a less dangerous hobby than irredentism. I am not
entirely sure that the German Federal Republic is ready to welcome
with open arms the enclaves present hundreds of thousands of Russian
inhabitants let alone risk a war by offering them the depressed
population the mirage of acceptance into the bosom of the Federal
social welfare system and access to the E.U. labour market.
John (Rohde).
I know I may also have fanned the flames of this
subject in the beginning, but upon rereading the
original information, it seems the point is to get
this language-society-lifestyle into black and white
before it becomes a guessing game for
reconstructionists, as it would be to try and
reconstruct the language-society-lifestyle of the
Neanderthal.
Regards,
Robert Lipprandt
Als Ergaenzung zur Diskussion einer prussischen Identitaet moechte ich auf
den bedeutenden preussischen Historiker Christoph Hartknoch hinweisen. Seine
Dissertation:
Alt- und Neues Preussen
oder preussischer Historien zwey Theile in derem erstem von dess Landes
vorj�hriger Gelegenheit und Nahmen .... in dem andern aber von dess Teutschen
Ordens Ursprung ...
Frankfurt/Leipzig, Hallervorden 1684,
nachgedruckt 1991.
beschreibt auch alte prussische Braeuche. Da die angeblich letzte prussisch
sprechende Person erst 1662 gestorben war, konnte er ueberlieferte Kenntnisse
noch gut beschreiben.
Zu ihm gibt das Internet zahlreiche Informationen, wenn man seinen Namen als
Suchkriterium angibt, wie z.B.:
http://pirmojiknyga.mch.mii.lt/Leidiniai/Prusviet.de.htm
mit vielen alten Kupferstichen
oder
http://www.mammen-online.de/bock.htm
Darin findet man die nachfolgend kopierte Beschreibung eines alten prussischen
Brauchs.
Die Bockheiligung
Die Zeremonie des Bockheiligens soll noch lange zur Verehrung und
Vers�hnung der alten G�tter in Preu�en, obwohl im geheimen, fortbestanden haben.
Dazu kamen die Bauern aus mehreren D�rfern in einer Scheune zusammen. Dort
w�hlten sie einen alten Mann zum Waidelotten. Nun machten sie in der Mitte der
Scheune ein langes Feuer. Als das geschehen war, brachte man den Bock herein und
die Frauen das Weizenmehl f�r die Kuchen. War der Teig fertig, setzte sich der
Waidelotte auf einen erh�hten Sitz, von welchem er an die Versammelten eine Rede
hielt.
Er erz�hlte ihnen �ber die Urankunft des pru�ischen Volkes und das Land,
�ber dessen Heldentaten und Tugenden, �ber die Gebote der G�tter, und was sie
von den Menschen fordern. dann f�hrte er den Bock in die Mitte der Versammlung,
legte seine H�nde auf ihn, und rief alle alten G�tter der Reihe nach an, da� sie
gn�dig herabschauen m�gen. Darauf fielen alle Anwesenden auf die Knie und
beichteten dem Waidelotten ihre S�nden, mit denen sie dachten, die G�tter
erz�rnt zu haben. Nun stimmten sie einen Lobgesang an, hoben den Bock empor und
hielten ihn solange, bis der Gesang beendet war. Danach setzten sie ihn wieder
auf die Erde. Der Waidelotte ermahnte das Volk, dieses Opfer mit tiefer Demut zu
verrichten und so, wie es von ihren Vorfahren �bermittelt wurde, auch an die
Nachfahren weiterzugeben.
[ Kuperstich eines Waidelotten] Ein Waidelotte (Priester) bei
der Zeremonie
der Bockheiligung. Kupferstich
aus Christoph Hartknoch,
Alt- und Neues Preussen.
Frankfurt/Leipzig 1684
Alsdann schlachtete er den Bock, fing das Blut in einer Sch�ssel auf und
besprengte die Herumstehenden damit. Jeder bekam auch ein Sch�lchen mit Blut, um
es sp�ter ihrem Vieh zu trinken zu geben. Das sollte die Tiere gegen Krankheit
sch�tzen. Nun wurde der Bock in St�cke gehauen, die auf Brettern �ber das Feuer
gelegt wurden, um zu braten. W�hrend des Bratens fielen alle vor dem Waidelotten
auf die Knie, der sie f�r die vorhin gebeichteten S�nden strafte, indem er sie
schlug, an den Haaren ri� oder dergleichen mehr. Doch bald kehrte sich dies um
und sie fielen �ber den Waidelotten her, den sie ebenso rissen und schlugen.
War die alles geschehen, fingen die Frauen mit dem Kuchenbacken an. Die
Kuchen wurden aber nicht im Ofen gebacken, sondern wurden den M�nnern gegeben,
die sie sich solange durchs Feuer zuwarfen, bis sie gar waren. Jetzt erst konnte
das Essen und Trinken beginnen, welches den ganzen Tag und die folgende Nacht
dauerte.
Was von dem Mahle �brig war, wurde sorgf�ltig vergraben, um dadurch die G�tter
besonders gn�dig zu stimmen. Im Samland wurde sp�ter auf diese Weise eine Sau
geheiligt und geopfert, um dadurch reichen Fischfang zu erwerben. Nat�rlich
wurden diese Rituale sehr heimlich ausgef�hrt; und wenn einst zuf�llig ein
Fremder dazukam, konnte er oft nur mit viel M�he sein Leben retten.
Man kann wohl davon ausgehen, dass im Samland noch bis ins 14. Jh. Prussen in
geschlossenen Siedlungen lebten, die Sprache noch im 16. Jh. gesprochen wurde.
Deutsch und prussisch sprechende Siedlungen bestanden nebeneinander, da ein
soziales Gef�lle zwischen deutschen Siedlern und Prussen bestand. Erst die
verschlechterten Rechtsverh�ltnisse der Deutschen nach den Niederlagen des
Ordens f�hrte zu einer sozialen Ann�herung und familiaerer Vermengung. Dadurch
wurden die Prussen in das deutsche Volkstum aufgesogen.
Erst in den letzten 20 Jahren ist eine unvoreingenommene Behandlung des Themas
moeglich, da bis in die '70er Jahre eine vergleichbare Diskussion einen
Tummelplatz nationalistischer Voreingenommenheit und Vorurteile f�r
Polen, Litauer und Deutsche geboten h�tte.
Der letzte Stadtarchivar von Koenigsberg, Gause, soll seine Vorfahren bis auf
prussische Ahnen zurueckverfolgen gekonnt haben.
Uebrigens, im Internet unter "Gause" und "Koenigsberg" suchen, gibt auch viele
interessante Adressen.
Mit freundlichem Gruss
Dieter Schaefer