Frederick A. Hattorf in New York

Good morning members of the Hannover list in the USA

My name is Armin Hattorf and i am looking for some secrets (i like secrets)
of Frederick A. Hattorf (Hattorff) living about 1850 in New York. He is in the
1860 Brooklyn City directory (Hearnes).

I found a hint, that he might have been married in Memsen/Hoya (Kingdom
Hannover)

And this is what i found at ancestry.com :

    Hattorf H Friedrich August Memsen, Hoya, Hanover married 12 Jan
1844, witness

Ok the question is what does it mean? Was he witness for a marriage? I have
been looking for the marriage datas in Memsen Hoya today Hoyershagen, there
was no marriage of a Friedrich August in 1844.

And the very strange thing is his first born son should be Frederick J. born
around 1843 in New York, so he was surely not in Germany in that time.

He is in the 1850 census of course misspelled as Fred. A. Haltorf (35
years), segar dealer, what is the old word for cigar dealer, born in ENGLAND, what
is absolutely correct, with his wife Julia, (31 years) from Germany, Julia T,
(7 years, born in NY), George E., (5 years, born in NY), and Julia S (3
years, born NY).

In the 1860 census i cant find the WHOLE FAMILY!!! Frederick A. is now a
boarder in Richmond Virginia, this time named F. H. Hattorf born in the Kingdom
Hannover:-)))) without family!!!! He marries again 1861 in Richmond, Virginia.

Thats all but i have nothing about his old family in NY. One thing is sure
there was a Frederick and a George Edward Hattorf in the 13th regiment of
Artillery in 1862 fighting for the Union, and i am absolutely sure that this
persons are the sons of Frederick A. (who was in the southern army) it looks like
a little family tragedy.

So now i am looking for hours and hours to find a hint in New York about
Julia and the boys in 1860 where are they. And i cant find George Edward too not
in 1860, 1870, 1880, but suddenly in 1900 Census a certain George Hattorf.

So is there still a possibility to find out more about Frederick A and his
time in NY??? How many children did they realy have? Are there churchbooks
like we have here in Germany?

Thank you very much

Armin (Hattorf)

Hi Armin:

I note that you are starting with the older person and
going down the list to the younger decendants, instead of
starting with your father and moving back in time.

So my question (please don't be insulted) is: Are you
chasing a name or a person?

What do you have that ties together all the people you
have listed, or do you just have a stack of similar names?
Of course the 1850 census ties together the people in
that family and possibly later to some individuals.

If you have an established nexus then you are right to chace the names you have mentioned.

Gale

It sounds to me like Armin is doing what so many on the other side of the pond are doing :: trying to locate a family connection or branch. Only in reverse fashion from what we are often used to seeing (with the majority seeking connections TO Germany). It appears he has been quite diligent so far in determining an outline of this branch, but is hoping to fill in a few of the particulars ('secrets' as he puts it, to which we all have a weakness in this pastime). Not to worry Armin, you're in like-minded company! :wink:

Being a working stiff, I don't have too much extra time to pursue individual specifics for listers, all the more so outside of the California area. For that reason, I simply try to offer the best advice I can in where (or how) one can pursue certain leads. Fortunately others on the list have a bit more elbow room, as well as the requisite online tools to proffer some very helpful "specifics".

As I read it, it appears our friend Armin is first seeking clarification on what a Ancestry.com (German) marriage descriptor might be indicating precisely. Those with a subscription to AC may be able to help clarify this reference a bit better.

Secondly (and Armin take note), dates as they are listed in the censuses may not be "dead-on" as we say, in fact quite often they are far from it. Always allow a certain "fudge-factor" (leeway) of at least a few years up or down from what you observe listed. One quickly comes to see that many of the particulars in the census returns amount to "approximations", and are not always highly accurate. These inaccuracies are true for many other records too, not just the census ones, since much of this data is being rendered by family members, and is therefore based on the limitations of their knowledge or recollections at the time. So Frederick J. may or may not have been born circa 1843 in New York, at least until additional supporting evidence can be uncovered (unless you have more).

In the 1860 census i cant find the WHOLE FAMILY!!! Frederick A. is now a boarder in Richmond Virginia, this time named F. H. Hattorf born in the Kingdom Hannover:-)))) without family!!!! He marries again 1861 in Richmond, Virginia.

Regarding Frederick A.'s solo appearance in 1860, he may have been divorced or separated from his first wife at this point, or his family (or certain members of it, particularly with his wife) could have been the victim(s) of an accident or illness or death (assuming your 1860 Richmond, Virginia information is sound). If that were the case, the children may have been placed in foster care along the way, or may have been reared under the roof of a different papa, amongst other possibilities.

Thats all but i have nothing about his old family in NY. One thing is sure there was a Frederick and a George Edward Hattorf in the 13th regiment of Artillery in 1862 fighting for the Union, and i am absolutely sure that this persons are the sons of Frederick A. (who was in the southern army) it looks like a little family tragedy.

Your linking of his (possible) sons to the Civil War may point to a family "tragedy" as you put it (hinting of differing familial views regarding that conflict), or it could just be that Frederick Sr. moved to Virginia (for whatever reason) and his sons, being raised in NY, had natural allegiances to the state and "side" they called home. Hard to say if a "tragedy" is involved here or not, no?
I'd also keep an open mind as to the certainty that these are his sons in the Union ranks. They may well have been, only this is a huge country with many similar or identical names occurring here, there and everywhere - then and now! Moreover, if his son Frederick was not born until 1850 or beyond (per the 1850 census), that would place him at age 15 (at best) during the last year of the war in 1865. Not a highly likely scenario for seeing action during the conflict (though theoretically possible I suppose). Or was Frederick Jr., "his first born son", indeed listed in that 1850 census? [??]

So is there still a possibility to find out more about Frederick A and his time in NY??? How many children did they realy have? Are there churchbooks like we have here in Germany?

There would definitely be a various records to be found in NY dating back to that time period, but every state in the USA is different in what kinds of records they kept (and keep). There is no easy answer here, all the more so if the family were residents of NY CITY versus NY state. A city as big as NYC plays by its own set of rules so to speak, as opposed to the outlying counties and cities that surround it. You could almost call it "specialized" research, perhaps more than any other city in America, being that it is the largest city - then and now - in the country. You will probably have to determine the borough or precinct the family resided in, as opposed to just the city "proper" (main), which would likely be too broad. There are actual research guides and books written just on the subject of doing family research in NYC. These could be looked into, or perhaps a local area genealogist in the NYC area could be consulted or enlisted. Hopefully someone on the list has done family research in that city, and will have more to offer.

Also NY city AND state may have had a few of their own individual censuses enumerated over the years, as opposed to the FEDERAL ones we all generally reference. That alone could offer additional possibilities. Try NY STATE / CITY CENSUSES in a good search engine. Certificates of death could also be sought, once enough supporting documentation is found. Likewise Civil War records on the sons from NARA (National Archives). It goes on and on from there. Depends on how much time and/or money you want to spend in the end I suppose (as in everything else).

Now don't keep us in suspense Armin. Many will be curious as to your connection here. Is it a case of the Deutschlander seeking the Amerikaners, much to our naive surprise? You mean... it can work both ways? <lol>

Now if that's the case, we are unfortunately coming up a bit short regarding Jan Timphaus's request [February�1] for more info or possible leads on the GERHARD WINGERBERG�family who came to the USA in 1875 from Westerholte (though Barb may have found a newspaper obit), with daughters Elisabeth and Wilhelmine. Also Baerbel's request [January�29] for perspective leads on HEINRICH BEHRENS from Luttum, who may have emigrated to America and had two daughters, Gisela Charlotte Behrens and Ingrid Erika Behrens. Maybe someone with the right tools could give these a shot also (Barbara is working overtime as it is, with Gale pulling up the rear).

For a start, both of our German side requesters could subscribe to Ancestry.com for a free 2 week trial if possessing a sufficient command of English, and peruse the gamut of records found there. Sounds like Armin may already have. :wink:

Best of luck. Jb

In regards to JB's conjecture about New York State Censuses [Censi], I know for
a fact that the State of New York conducted its own censuses in 1855 and 1865
[and, I believe, in 1875]. Unfortunately, I don't know of any on-line source
for these censuses. They are availale at the New York State Library in Albany
New York, and the appropriate portions are available at various County Record
Offices throughout the state of New York.
Don Roddy

----- Message from johnbrene@hotmail.com ---------

Hi Armin,

I have an idea why you found Frederick only on the 1860 VA. census. Because he was a cigar? dealer..perhaps he spent time in Virginnia buying tobacco.

I have located some of my Washington County ancestors on later 1900/1910 census' enumerated twice. In St. Louis City, Missouri and on the farm Washington County, Illinois.

Mine were not wealthy people....I think when not needed on the home farm stayed in the city with relatives to suppliment the family farm income through employment in the city.

Barbie-Lew

Hi Armin,

I have an idea why you found Frederick only on the 1860 VA. census. Because he was a cigar? dealer..perhaps he spent time in Virginnia buying tobacco.

I have located some of my Washington County ancestors on later 1900/1910 census' enumerated twice. In St. Louis City, Missouri and on the farm Washington County, Illinois.

Mine were not wealthy people....I think when not needed on the home farm stayed in the city with relatives to suppliment the family farm income through employment in the city.

Barbie-Lew