Back to genealogy & history in the Hannover area

I've enjoyed reading accounts of how Hannovarians fared in the Americas -
here's an account of my bloodline:

The last 3 wars on the European mainland were the reason I wasn't told until
the morning of my wedding day in the 1960's that my mother's mother was the
daughter of a German, or Austrian as an aunt describes him and as Gary
mentioned bombs have destroyed family heirlooms, documents and archive
records. Luckily a daughter-in-law of my gt.grandfather Hermann Flamme was
the type who wouldn't take silence as an answer :slight_smile: and thus I have been
able to piece together a life of hardship in the KOH and England for my
direct line. With the help of Klaus I found the Catholic Flamme family.
Franz Flamme the miller and houseowner of Liebenberg could read and write,
he had a wife and family who could also read & write but he strayed from the
straight and narrow and in 1823 Heinrich Flamme was born to a Lutheran unwed
mother. Heinrich, then a servant at Immenrode married Sophie Ehlers a
farmers daughter in Gross Mahner June 1854. If he had learnt to read and
write he would have discovered the vicar had entered the Sept. 1854 baptism
details of his new son incorrectly - namely father & son's names were
interpolated. The court records of the time show provision of a building
specifically for widows, which gives an idea of upheaval. After a period of
calm the record shows a massive rise in population. With unrest rumbling in
1864-ish my gt.grandfather Hermann was brought across to England with 2
other children to have a chance of a 'better' life busking the streets of
England and later on at 16 yrs old was officially working in a sweat shop as
a 'tailor'. In 1852 the musical Bielstein family were living in Salzgitter
and in 1861 they had set up a music school in Hull, England in 1871 Hermann
was living next door with his musician uncle Conrad Ehlers from Salzgitter.
Conrad had fled his home years before to evade being mustered into the navy
and I'm presuming this was about the time there was trouble between Austria
and Denmark. I assume there were differences in dialect between villages in
Hannover because 'Flamme' was written as 'Flemme' in the Salzgitter 1852
census and the same applied in England where Hermann's name was written as
'Flemme'. By the 1890's Herman was married, had a family and gone into
business opening his first greengrocery shop which by 1899 had become two
shops and he branched out making his own recipe icecream but he'd had to
anglicise his name to 'Fleming' because there were rumblings in Europe
stirred up by Bismarck 1890-1902 - (that's when the Kingdom of Hannover was
lost to Britain who had gained it in a dowry centuries before.) In 1900
Herman was walking the streets looking for work. I've read Germans were
targeted, shop windows broken etc.

WWI came about because Britain went to the aid of Belgium who she had a
treaty with. It will surprise some of you to learn that Kaiser Bill sent
helium filled airships to bomb England. Once again it didn't do to
advertise you were of German descent. Herman had to report to the police
station daily and his 3 youngest sons were conscripted and sent to France
with the Royal Army Medical Corp and official medal records show them as
'FLEMME'. His eldest son William Henry b1877 was eventually commandeered
into the army and perished in the Somme Sept 1918 aged 41 recorded with his
Angliced surname of 'Fleming'. His cousin was sent to an alien's camp. If
my memory serves me right there were 12 million deaths in WWI. Bitter sweet
is the knowledge that in 1914 reservist Heinrich Flamme died defending
German, his homeland. The Allies decided that the Great War would end all
wars and set about moving territorial boundaries - Britain organised
Treaties with all and sundry and that's the key as to why we ventured into
Europe again.

When Hitler decided to take back all that he considered was German land in
1938 the rest of Europe was helpless because all the countries he marched
into had a treaty with Germany and all Hitler had to do was say he was
looking after their interests. At the time Britain had a pacifist
government but once Hitler had moved into the country he didn't have a
treaty with, Britain had to act (and I think it was Poland). Hitler had
secretly amassed thousands of war planes against our few dozen biplanes and
monoplanes - we asked America for help and it came back in the form of
manual warning sirens which came in handy for the blitzkreig on London :-))
I noticed a comment about France - this country was split, the Vichy French
were pleased to see Germany's advance and some French pilots defied orders
and flew their planes to England. I rather liked the way Churchill put it
years later -"The French will never come to our aid - they owe us too much".
Re the two Germanies: After the hostilities ceased, Winston Churchill, who
was ill at the time, was outmanoevred at Yalta by Lenin and the US President
Trueman. I haven't read Trueman's account of why he acted as he did.

I haven't been able to find the official record of Herman's death but I do know he died in the house he built with the help of his sons in a beautiful Yorkshire village. He'd planted an orchard of apple trees and in the days of 'dry' toilets(johns) he'd built a wooden shed, inside which he'd made double 'seats', one lower than the other for the visiting children. Up until the mid 1960's (when sewers were laid) a horse drawn covered wagon would visit each house in the village to empty the toilets :slight_smile:

Jb got it exactly right - I'm a royalist. Like Holland our monarchy is only
a figurehead, not an absolute ruler, non-political and whatever any world
leader says to her or asks advice on, it never goes any further. The crown
has a stabilizing effect and brings in more visitors than our Tony. We can
thank Oliver Cromwell for that - I think the dictator Franco must have
copied Cromwell. Presidents and prime ministers come and go and are very
expensive on the upkeep.

Best Wishes to everyone for a healthy happy new year.
Rena

Hi Rena,
    I enjoyed reading your account of your German/Austrian ancestors. One
factual error jumped out at me, however, and I felt compelled to draw it to
your attantion. You wrote "...there were rumblings in Europe
stirred up by Bismarck 1890-1902 - (that's when the Kingdom of Hannover was
lost to Britain who had gained it in a dowry centuries before.)".
    I think you will find that Britain never "gained" the Kingdom of Hannover.
On the contrary, the rulers of what eventually became the Kingdom of Hannover
also became the rulers of Great Britain and Ireland in 1714 when Queen Anne
died without a living heir to the thrown. This situation has been referred
to as a "personal relationship" between England and Hannover.
    That "personal relationship" ceased to exist in 1837 when Victoria succeeded
to the thrown of Great Britain, Ireland & India. Hannoverian law did not
allow a woman to rule the kingdom so a new King, Ernst August, became the king
of Hannover.
     The Kingdom of Hannover ceased to exist after it was invaded and annexed by
Prussia in 1866.
     I'd like to take this opportunity to wish everyone on this list a very
Happy, Healthy & Prosperous 2006.
Don Roddy

This Email by Rena is precisely why threads should not be cut off. She wrote
an excellent email with many interesting observations some being her own
some being from others. I found her referring to, Kaiser Bill, as being very
amusing, as I had never heard this before.
As for Rena's comment, "Jb got it exactly right - I'm a royalist." I am glad
to hear of her support for the Royal family. I think to many English people
have a short memory about how well they were led in the past. One thing for
sure is that the Royalty of England has made for some great reading.
Having Churchill, Roosevelt and Truman negotiating for the lives of the
people in the 11 eastern states that were swallow up by Stalin was like
sending out your best beer drinking team to play against the NFL. If England
interred the war to keep Poland free as their treaty with Poland said, then
they lost the war as Poland and 10 other states were given over to the
communist. What treachery was shown by the USA and England to the suffering
of the people of those eastern states. I guess that I should stop here
before I say something that may not have something to do with historical or
genealogical facts.
Jim

Hi Rena

"Bittersweet" It would be a good title! If I remember correctly, the original English were 'run out of town' to Normandy. All of the current Brits are Germanic descendants?

There were too many 'krauts' in St Louis for there to be any real violence agianst the Germans in WWI. However, across the Mississippi River in Illinois, there was a famous hanging.

Gary

Gary

Was that the hanging of the man, who murdered his wife and young son
because she practiced her Catholic religion?

There's a simple term for it. It's called selling out.

Jb

Hi Pat

You made me look it up. This is from Nate Williams, Wittenburg U. site http://www.wfa-usa.org/new/germanamer.htm

"Robert Prager moved to the United States from Dresden, Germany, in 1905 and felt a strong sense of loyalty to the United States when war was declared on his homeland in 1917. Working as a miner just outside of Collinsville, Illinois, Prager applied for membership into the local miners union, but was denied because he was suspected to be a German agent who was plotting to blow up the mine in which he worked. After reading a statement pleading Prager's case for membership into the union, a group of local miners forced Prager to show his patriotism by parading through the streets of Collinsville while kissing the American flag and singing the Star Spangled Banner. After being taken into police custody for safety purposes earlier that evening, Prager was found once again by the now drunken and hostile mob and forced back into the streets. The mob marched Prager just outside of town where he was to meet his fate in the early morning of April 5, 1918. The mob threw a rope over a tree branch and tightened the noose around Prager's neck.

There was a trial of eleven defendants who were accused of his murder. They were all acquitted and set free. Despite the judge's best efforts to convince the jury that it was not the loyalty of Robert Prager to the United States that was on trial, the jury ignored the guilt of the eleven men who played a physical part in Prager's hanging. After the verdict was read, a member of the jury had this to say; "Well, I guess nobody can say we aren't loyal now... we've done justice of the right sort for Madison County."

Gary

Gary

A hundred years has passed and things haven't changed in many ways and that
goes for all countries. Some other countries seem proud to hate Americans
they way that we hate others.

I think, personally, that we should not meddle in the business, wars or what
not for/or with any country. We are damned if, we do and damned if, we don't
so ....stay in our own land and take care of our own.....they come our way
then fight. Charity begins at home

I was speaking of a hanging that happened in the town square in Hamilton
County, IL. This was sometime before 1900.
It was gruesome....and the actual picture or drawing if, I recall is on the
internet...if, you go to Hamilton County, IL and look for the hanging , you
will get the whole story.

Seems he was of the Lutheran faith and she of the Catholic and she wanted to
have her children baptized in her faith...well, she left him and went to her
parents and baptized a little boy ...he followed and swore that he would
change and ...well...go to the site and see for yourself. It is as if, this
could be happening today....nothing changes!!!!

As long as there is religion, politics, greed and a need for... or want for
superiority ...things will never change.

Thanks for an interesting but, sad story....shame on us all.

Pat

<<shame on us all>>

Patricia

Thanks for the story but don't feel shame - we had no part in it - nor would we today. Right? It's history

Gary