Antw: Re: 19th century German censuses -lds

The words Falk wrote more or less echo my own understanding that the Church of Latter Day Saints set out to approach every church in the 1980's to ask permission to photograph the books kept on the church premises. In Britain, many priests/pastors/vicars agreed but many priests would not allow this.

Our research would not be so difficult if only European given names were not so difficult to pinpoint, i.e. we look for 'Heinrich' which will have two preceeding given names, (say) Johann Andreas Heinrich for example. Britain was fortunate that Hugh Wallis (found on rootsweb freepages) created middle name indexes from the IGI for all English and Scottish counties. To do this he extracted the relevant records from the batches listed on the relevant county page from his IGI Batch number site and indexed them by middle name.

Braunschweig Lutheran Archivist recently informed me that she would write out some official baptism records for me - the books being too old to film. I know of 3 people researching this village church record - this means the archivist is handling this 'too old' book many times when it would be safer to take digital images for public use. Incidentally the archivist gave me the name "Christine". Has anyone ever seen this English name in a German book?

Rena

Yes Barbara,

Christine is fairly common all over Germany - past and present

Falk

"Rena McCarthy" <rena@rena24.fsnet.co.uk> 12/15/06 1:32 >>>

The words Falk wrote more or less echo my own understanding that the
Church
of Latter Day Saints set out to approach every church in the 1980's to
ask
permission to photograph the books kept on the church premises. In
Britain,
many priests/pastors/vicars agreed but many priests would not allow
this.

Our research would not be so difficult if only European given names
were not
so difficult to pinpoint, i.e. we look for 'Heinrich' which will have
two
preceeding given names, (say) Johann Andreas Heinrich for example.
Britain
was fortunate that Hugh Wallis (found on rootsweb freepages) created
middle
name indexes from the IGI for all English and Scottish counties. To do
this
he extracted the relevant records from the batches listed on the
relevant
county page from his IGI Batch number site and indexed them by middle
name.

Braunschweig Lutheran Archivist recently informed me that she would
write
out some official baptism records for me - the books being too old to
film.
I know of 3 people researching this village church record - this means
the
archivist is handling this 'too old' book many times when it would be
safer
to take digital images for public use. Incidentally the archivist gave
me
the name "Christine". Has anyone ever seen this English name in a
German
book?

Rena

Hi Rena,
    I can't say that I've ever noticed the name "Christine" in any German
archival doccuments, but then, I wasn't looking for that name. However, I
have a distant cousin in the Hannover area named Christine. Her siblings and
children all have "typical" German names (Heinrich, Jörn, etc). I also knew a
German flight attendent (in my former incarnation as an airline pilot)whose name
was Christine.
Don Roddy

----- Message from rena@rena24.fsnet.co.uk ---------

Hallo

It is similar here in Missouri, but not identical.

In Missouri there are four Catholic dioceses. One permitted the LDS to film
the records of the parishes in that diocese. The other three dioceses have
not given permission. Now the National Council of Catholic Bishops
recommends that bishops do not give permission.

A different approach was followed in the Diocese of Belleville, Illinois.
The local (St. Clair County) genealogy Verein was allowed to copy the films
(of parish records) that the diocese had made, on the condition that data
from after a certain date be excised.

The Missouri Synod Lutherans have not permitted filming, but other Lutheran
groups have permitted filming.

Many of the old ev.-Luth. records in Missouri have been filmed, but, it
seems, on a parish-by-parish basis. I fear that many of those excellent old
records have been lost. Interestingly, in those records, the word Pathen was
changed to Patten just about when that change was made in Germany.

I have never found in a Missouri record that the pastor had entered the
surnames of the principals in plain Roman lettering, as did the pastor at
St. Georgen (kath.) in Freiburg/Br. That is a super "Rosetta stone" to his
handwriting and, indeed, to old German handscript in general.

Bob Doerr in the beautiful Missouri Ozarks

Rena,

I found the names Christine and Christina numerous times during my research of German records. I'm not sure how widespread the name is throughout the country, my research is predominantly in north and northwest Germany.

Joel

Hallo Liste!

Nach wie vor suche ich nach dem Verbleib der Kinder des Pastor Jacob Conrad Fahrenkohl aus Didderse ( verstorben 1.12.1759).
Ludolphine Regina, geb. 27.03.1727,
Henning Georg Wilhelm, geb. 16.05.1730,
Christian Heinrich, geb. 21.03.1732,
Beata Henrietta Juliana, geb. 09.04.1737
und Magdalenea Lucretia, Heirat am 20 10.1756 mit Pastor Heinrich Sack, Wipshausen. Zeugen waren ihre Br�der.

wer kann helfen?

Karsten

I have an ancestor that her name is Catherine GRAWELMANN or GRAUELMANN or
GRAVELMANN ... (records illegible) who lived in Wichtenbeck (near Eimke),
now Kreis Uelzen, Niedersachsen in the mid-late 1700s

A book about Eimke mentions that she had married a man named HILLMER /
HILMER who died shortly after their marriage (no records found to prove
marriage or death) and as a widow she married a William JOHANNES. She had
inherited House #9 (actually a Farm) from her father so she must have been
either an only child or the eldest of all girls. Even though she had
children by HILLMER (including my ancestor, Christopher), the farm was
inherited by her 2nd husband, William JOHANNES, and subsequently onto his
children by her. After many the years, the farm was back in the hands of a
HILLMER (not sure, but believe it was a purchase).

I have been unable to find ANYONE with the surname spellings which was
transcribed for her. I was hoping someone may recognize her or the family
name.

Any help would be appreciated.

Bonita Hillmer
Arizona, USA

The words Falk wrote more or less echo my own understanding that the Church of Latter Day Saints set out to approach every church in the 1980's to ask permission to photograph the books kept on the church premises.� In Britain, many priests/pastors/vicars agreed but many priests would not allow this.

Right, but none of this is new news. This is true everywhere LDS does its thing, since they began filming records decades ago, for both church and state. As I mentioned earlier - and Bob Doerr illustrated - you see this same thing in the States too.

Lots of good suggestions, but we haven't really pinpointed the hang up Brouwsers is facing in the Netherlands, or moved to much past what Werner originally put forth. My question remains: if the German privacy laws, which "protect" folks in Germany from accessing records dating back only 100 years, and the German census records do not fall under the jurisdiction of the churches (or so I presume! could it be different?), what exactly is the hang up? If it lies with LDS itself, it seems hard to believe, as those folks are looking to save souls by getting ALL FORMS of information out freely for one and all to access, so others can discover more familial souls to save. After all, the furthering of the availability of this kind of information is one of the staples of their creed.

If anyone knows anything more, speak up!

=> Brouwsers, if you're still following along, I've done what I can to push this but we still don't have a precise answer for you, though a good number on the list have come up with plausible explanations. Perhaps you should call a FHC in your area and ask the head honcho in charge there EXACTLY WHY they will not bring those films in, that is, the EXACT nature of the proscription. Sometimes on matters like these it is best to go straight to the source of the conflict.

Let us know what you find if you do - oh and supply us your first name mate if Brouwsers is merely a pseudonym.

Braunschweig Lutheran Archivist recently informed me that she would write out some official baptism records for me - the books being too old to film. I know of 3 people researching this village church record - this means the archivist is handling this 'too old' book many times when it would be safer to take digital images for public use.

That is often a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" proposition. The requirements to properly film, digitally or otherwise, old ledgers often call for the dismantling of these old registers, which for some is unacceptable. To what extent LDS offers to reconstruct or rebind them I do not know, it may be too expensive, but that is obviously a big consideration. The largest "carrot on a stick" LDS carries is the obvious one - the purveyor receives a permanent copy of these records in an analog/digital format for purposes of posterity (security) and easy reference, which indeed would lessen the wear of constantly accessing the original source records.

I've always felt if our elected officials, in all their infinite wisdom, weren't so given to dispensing of our precious tax contributions on all the wrong folks (and causes), there'd be a lot more to go around to help strapped institutions like archives and libraries in their struggle to preserve their old and irreplaceable holdings. But don't hold your breath here of course - these elected heads always tend to protect that precious class of corporate big shots whose whole raison d'existence is to seeks profits at all cost, often obscenely, and to strategically filter the right amount of dollars into these officials' election war chests. This assures far too many of the same old faces will remain secure in high places far past their prime. [SOS]

Jb

Hi Bonita

How about Graumann? I just did a search for Grauelmann with Eimke and
Google said "do you mean Graumann?" So I went to that. To the ear, omitting
the "L" makes little difference in the sound. There are quite a few Graumann
listing in the LDS.

Barbara

Thanks very much

Thanks JB, But it there is still no answer among all the suggestions,
tips and explanations why after all these years the films lds has from
Germany are not allowed to be veiwed in Western Europe. My name is Anna
Marie Schmitz , my partner's last name is Brouwers

I agree. It's maddening.

Stick with it though. Something may surface. Or do what I last suggested - call a FHC in your area, ask to speak to someone in charge, and see if they will tell you EXACTLY why this cannot be done (ask them to cite the restriction if they can). Often times it is best to go straight to the source when nothing else avails itself.

Good luck to you. Nice to see "Brouwers" has such a pretty name behind it.

Jb